Interviews

Jonah Gray- Vision Quest, Hosting Your Own Funeral, and Fasting (#44)

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*Dead by Tomorrow may receive commission on links in these and other posts on the website*

Jonah Gray (@ajonahgray) is one of those men with too many hats. First, he's the host of Rethoughts, a podcast that teaches you how to think and question what you know. If that weren't enough, he helps in the family business at Gray's Studio doing marketing, and simultaneously works in the newly opened TX Trends wheel shop that he and the family brought about. Finally, if that weren't enough, he's spun up his own merch brand with his youngest brother, Skelliez Clothing.

We talk about the Vision Quest Jonah just went on, fasting, and all the cool tidbits surrounding his recent and enlightening trip to Utah.

Show Notes

Challenge:

Go wander. Spend the day somewhere in the wilderness without electronics, without all the distractions we load ourselves up with.


Skelliez Clothing:

https://www.skelliez.com/

Rad shirts from some rad guys. Jonah and his brother, Roman, dropped this bomb on us quite recently. It's definitely worth checking out their original and hella slick designs.

Andrew's Favorite Shirt From Skelliez



TX Trends:

https://www.txtrends.com/

Man. If these guys can't make your car an attention magnet, you need a new ride.

Holy guacamole-wheels.

Gray's Studio:

https://www.graysstudio.com/

"Let us propel your business with Facebook & Instagram Ads, Converting Websites, and Custom Film & Photography Content while utilizing Lead Generation Ads and ChatBots. Other platforms are necessary depending on the business we are working with. Currently helping 30+ companies in over 20 cities grow each and every month."

Soulcraft:

https://soulcraftanz.com/

Soulcraft™ Australia & New Zealand offers programs and training in partnership with the Animas Valley Institute (AVI) based in Colorado, USA.

Founded by Bill Plotkin in 1980, the Animas Valley Institute has created and continues to evolve a contemporary Western, nature-based approach to the journey of soul initiation, drawing inspiration from modern depth psychology, nature-based cultures, wilderness rites of passage and the poetic tradition -  to our knowledge, the first of its kind.

Rethoughts Podcast:

https://www.rethoughts.com/

Jonah's exceptional podcast. To quote: "An open dialogue about what we should be rethinking."

This is one podcast you don't want to miss.

Rethoughts Podcast

Episode Transcript

[00:00:20] Andrew Monroe: Hey guys, welcome back to deadby tomorrow. We have Jonah gray with us today and we are missing Daniel. So forthose of you, that just absolutely love Daniel's melodious tones. I'm sorry. Hewas not able to make this episode, but I have one of my favorite people gettingto do an interview who is Jonah?

Jonah is one of the coolest guys I know in Amarillo andprobably in Texas and possibly in the world. So. About Jonah, because that'swhat we do here. And we want to hook you in with him. How cool he actually is.So Jonah does marketing. He does a tire. Does. I don't know if you can do atire shop, excuse me.

He works with his brother at a tire and rim shop, which is alot cooler than it might sound. If you don't know about that industry, he has areally sweet. T-shirt company with his other brother called skellies. And wewill link to that in the show notes as well. All of this will be linked to inthe show notes and you go check it all out.

And then on top of that, he has his own podcast. We thoughts.So if you've been following along with our social media, you would have seen acouple of months ago, we hopped on with Jonah to talk about dead by tomorrow onhis podcast. And we are finally coming back around to get him on ours. Now thatsaid, Jonah wears tons of hats.

He. And he's a fit guy. He does all these cool things. We couldprobably talk about a whole lot of different stuff, but the main reason we haveJonah on is taught that podcast recipricol city, whatever that is, that goesaround it's actually, because Jonah just went on a vision quest and it soundscool and super self-improvement oriented and something that I think everybodyshould probably do.

So, Jonah, on how are you feeling after your vision?

[00:02:00] Jonah Gray: Thanks for having me on that was,uh, , I said all a couple of times to myself. Well, while you were introducingme, , it was sweet. It was really heartfelt, but, , uh, I, it feels honestlylike waking up from a dream. , Coming back into reality. Um, I was gone for 12days on this, um, vision quest and, out in the woods, you're just with 12 otherpeople for the most part.

And then, uh, uh, we go, we went on a solo during, uh, threedays of that trip. So then you're by yourself. And so even coming back fromthat. , Those 12 other people, 12, 13 other people. , It's also like waking upfrom a dream and then back into society. It's , it's like inception of dreams,honestly,,, but,

[00:02:48] Andrew Monroe: All right. So let's go into thebasics on that.

What was your vision quest like? How did this come about? Whereexactly were you? What did you do while you were on it? Let's just jump in andgive me the whole data dump of information. you wanted to do this in the firstplace, how you got involved, everything you can think of, and I will pepper youwith questions as I can, but

make me do on this, I get to just sit back and listen to thehappier I'm going to be.

[00:03:13] Jonah Gray: I mean, honestly, 12 days whereyou begin, but, How I came about doing this, how I got introduced to this program.Uh it's through the animus valley Institute, as I initially started workingwith them through, doing their wild mind intensive couple of years ago. , Um,so the whole program was kind of based in, uh, or is foundationally based inbill plot books, , the wild mind , nature and the human soul , soul craft, and,uh, his newest book.

, Uh, the journey of soul initiation. , Um, so that first wildmind intensive was based solely off of a wild mind. , Um, and all of this is,uh, like ecotherapy. So he provides a framework, , a model of the psyche, a mapof the psyche, , uh, to kind of cultivate wholeness and, , reduce fragmentationand kind of , really just sort the inner voices that are going on your, yourinternal.

, Dialogues like with your , inner critic, uh, loyal soldier, ,um, and it's, and it's all archetypal. Um, I don't know if you're familiar withany like young youngian psychology. , Um, but he talks about archetypes in allthese different cultures where, , um, they're really symbolic of , what's goingon internally versus representing something that's actually happening.

I can in mythology and, , um, , You know, the archetypes of thehero and all of these different things. So, , um, it's all, it's all symbolic,but, in this framework you're able to observe , that I am this whole thing. Youknow, a lot of people we have, we have this tendency to, to, um, fragment, ,um, take these personality tests and then like put people in boxes andcategorize things.

, And one thing that this does is. , Makes it very clear that ,this isn't a diagnosis. This is all self-reflective. , Um, it's literally likelooking on a map, trying to figure out where you are. , And so, , um, in this,in this trip, this one was, uh, Seoul centric. It's a, uh, , without looking atthe map to kinda, it's kind of confusing, but it's a Western facet, uh,emphasize.

, And the Western facet where , you go deep into mystery andinto, , uh, like dying to identities that , do you know, a lot that no longerserve you and looking at your shadows and , various things like that, where ,it is, , , what bill plot can kind of describes is, uh, , uh, in thisdevelopmental stage of the psyche, it's kind of this wander in the cocoon.

, So if you take those images, , Of the cocoon a caterpillar.cocoon is the tomb for the caterpillar , and the womb for the butterfly. So itis this, really this Phoenix like transformation, this, this dying to whateverI was , so that I can be born to whatever I can become.

[00:06:02] Andrew Monroe: , I like it. , So you ,basically were looking at, , and I might be interpreting too much. You werekind of , breaking out of an archetype. You're kind of trying to shift yourmindset from , what you were maybe operating in, like the mindset that you hadabout who you were as a person you were looking to kind of upgrade , into amore open-minded , less , culturally biased mindset.

Is that kind of what it was.

[00:06:26] Jonah Gray: , Uh, yeah, so there's, there'sseveral different reasons why somebody would go on a vision quest. , Sospecifically though, uh, in the beginning of, uh, this trip , we have, what'scalled a council war where everybody is circled up. , Everybody has a chance totalk. I think you get about five minutes to speak and , we all, , describe ourintention for this journey, , uh, for this trip.

, And so what are described is, uh, there are these feelingsof, or this identity of inadequacy and undeserving, , and , really just illpreparedness for life that come up with me on a regular basis that I've beenworking on letting go. , and that's one of the things that I was dying to onthis trip. So, , um, one of these beliefs about myself, my.

, Is this a belief that I am , not good enough, , you know? Sothat was, that was my intention. It's not always, you know, biases that wehold, um, you know, like societal , beliefs and biases and , things of thatnature, but it can be, , um, so it's largely like, like I said, uh, with, withthis map, , it's largely looking at the map and figuring out where you are andwhere you need to calibrate to.

So. in this Northern facet, the north is, uh, the nurturinggenerative adult. That's what the facet is called. , and I am always in thenorth. , Maybe I need to recalibrate move south towards, the wild indigenousone. So , if you think of the , nurturing generative adult as kind of, yourinternal. , Um, how am I parenting myself internally?

So, , um, fragmented ways of doing that is, is, , with loyalsoldier or, um, the inner critic. Uh, as I, as I brought up earlier, there'salso the lion Tamer. I mean, there's, so there's this huge list of justdifferent sub-personalities that come up in each of these facets. And, uh, uh,so for example, the lion king.

teams kind of the wildness of the, of the psyche, wildness ofthe whole , and in the south is that wild indigenous one. That's where, youknow, your sense of belonging is, um, indigenous being, uh, belonging tosomething specifically though belonging to your, to your psyche belonging,just, just having a general sense of belonging.

, when you're fragmenting in the north, a lot of people have atendency to also not feel like they belong. , so , just for example.

[00:08:46] Andrew Monroe: So to oversimplify this foranybody not keeping up, is

[00:08:49] Jonah Gray: Hm.

[00:08:50] Andrew Monroe: you're just working on like,Hey, I need to be a better, more rounded person.

[00:08:55] Jonah Gray: , Yeah, yeah. It's uh, it, it isto simplify it. You could say that, it.

, you know, and it's not necessarily just well-rounded it'sit's, uh, , You know, there, there are plenty of people out there who, ,continue to live a fragmented lifestyle who are very well-rounded and , have,have a lot of stuff together and, you know, are very happy.

And, , there, so it's not really about, , I don't know, itgrowth in, in the sense that, uh, you need to come and do , this type of work.but it can be so healing as. like when, if that person still continues to notfind a sense of belonging anywhere they go, although they, they thrive in mostareas of their life.

, Um, they live a pretty, a generally healthy lifestyle. , butthey would like to have, uh, have, uh, make an inquiry into why I don't havethis sense of belonging anywhere I go. this might be a good, , tool. A good, agood idea. , Yeah.

[00:09:51] Andrew Monroe: , Okay. I like it , , Now, thepart, whenever we talked about. , I ran into you at the coffee shop. I think weat the coffee shop, that's probably where you were , and you were telling meabout this. , I really liked the concept of what you guys were doing. So youwere , for 12 days in Utah, correct?

[00:10:07] Jonah Gray: , Yes.

Yeah.

[00:10:09] Andrew Monroe: , So , what was it actuallylike?

What what'd you do for 12 days?

[00:10:12] Jonah Gray: , So at the beginning of it, um,so we were, we were at the four corners of Utah. So where we were on this Mesa,they called it, uh, beauty's Mesa. , it's got another name. I can't rememberthe actual name of it, but, , we can see like Arizona, New Mexico, Coloradofrom this position. , And. , Just taken in this beautiful view of like thecanyon lands and the mountains, and you can see Shiprock from where we were.

so, so that's part of it is just being exposed to, really thesepanoramic views, these, , uh, these natural phenomenon, these trees, thePonderosa Pines, , um, and really becoming acclimated to that as opposed to. myclocks and phones and just getting out of the societal tune that we'reconstantly humming to ourselves.

So, that's part of it is , letting go of, my day-to-day role sothat it can be present here. and in the beginning of that process, it's all ,preparation for, , uh, our solo, uh, and on our solo. , Uh, we were alsofasting for it. So for four days, we fasted , and for three of those four days?

we were completely alone completely by ourselves.

, So,

[00:11:24] Andrew Monroe: Wow.

[00:11:25] Jonah Gray: , yeah. And, and it's, uh, , you know,there's like this shock value to it. , but you know, like , there is , it's, I,I really just want people to know about this practice, you know, like, um, ,Recommend , doing this type of stuff safely. I don't recommend just saying,Hey, I'm going to do a four day fast. , I'm on my own.

And , like, I strongly recommend having something like thatfacilitated. but you know, a lot of people, when you tell them this, they'relike, geez, like, , I don't know. I could go four days without food. And it'slike, , it'd be , nice to try. Maybe you should try it. You know? It's like,you never know until you give it a try.

, With , the preparation leading up to it. Uh, it's kind ofsetting the intention for what , we want or what we're going to get out ofgoing on our solo, , um, what practices we're going to do. , Are we going to doany type of ceremony? , and then , why even do those ceremonies? So , forexample, leading up to it, we had a fair fire ceremony.

, Uh, so prior to the trip, we're instructed to bring. , Anobject , to offer to this fire , that is symbolic of maybe an obstacle, or abelief or an identity , that we can burn and let go of. , So, during this fireceremony, you , kind of state your intentions with the, object that you'reoffering to it. , Like why you're offering this, this item up , and , , lettingit go, letting it, like giving it to the fire. and, , and it's just like thisbeautiful, intentional practice and, , mindful makes you so aware of the, thethings that you hold on to, and that the identities That you , claim to have ,and realize that. , You are not really any of them. You can , become whatever ,you'd like to become. So, , with , this, this w with the ceremonies, they, theysay that, uh, ceremony is simply, it has a beginning, a middle and an end.

Right? so it's, it's kinda like a story, right? You have to.Open up your ceremony some way maybe with poetry, maybe with prayer, maybe witha song or dance or something that really grounds you in this thing. Um, causecause , pretty quickly you'll go, , uh, just start going through the motions ofthese ceremonies.

Like , you'll bring something to a fire or you'll throw it inand it doesn't really mean anything at that point. So it has to have , yourintention set into it. It has to have this ritual your these rights that arepassed and, , you , then have the middle part, the ceremony in the middle, themeat of it, where that's, where you're offering something to the fire or, or, ,um, I did a death lodge on , my solo, , um, where I essentially had, a Memorialservice, a funeral, and.

, In the middle of that, I'm sitting in a hole that I dug ,myself and have I laid these logs over me, like I'm , put away in a casket. Andprior, prior to entering that hole, read my eulogy. I invited everybody myloved ones to , my Memorial service, , excuse me. , and.

uh, , then , climbed into the whole.

, Pondered what it is, what it's meaning to what it means todie in this moment. What is dying at this moment? and then , after that, kindof , have this, you call it? , birthing ceremony? I don't really know whatyou'd call it. Like, uh, like at the end of the, the beginning, the middle andthe end.

So at the end having a birth, you know, what am I now? Whatabout. so what identities do I get to hold now?

[00:14:53] Andrew Monroe: , That is so cool. And I, ,something you said earlier about how , people have these preconceived notionsof who they are.

[00:14:59] Jonah Gray: , Hmm.

[00:15:00] Andrew Monroe: I think that is so importantfor people to get past because , lots and lots humans that I've met. , They'llsay things they'll say, well, I don't, I don't eat that kind of food or Idon't, don't try those kinds of things or that's, , that's not who I am.

And what they're saying is , I don't branch out from who Iperceive myself as a person.

[00:15:20] Jonah Gray: Yeah,,

[00:15:20] Andrew Monroe: , it hurts me so bad every timesomeone says that because , you're, they're limiting themselves to limitthemselves. , And that is just, I can't imagine that's good for you. , And itdefinitely isn't interesting. It doesn't, it doesn't bring anything to yourlife by these arbitrary boundaries on, well, this is what I do, because that'swhat I do.

, And like, well, , don't you want to try as cargo don't youwant to , see what happens when you dedicate yourself to running a marathon or,you know, whatever it is, or, , Hey, maybe you should be a better person.Maybe, you are. , OCD, maybe you're just being an ass. , Maybe if you relax alittle bit and start caring about other people, you not be proud of the factthat you're kind of rude to people about , this thing.

, so , I don't know people, , there's a lot of people that havetrouble with that. So , I love the concept of using a ritual to. , Wash away oraway some of these preconceived personality notions that people have to grow asa person. Cause , that, I think that would be so great if everybody wasrequired to do that.

I don't know. know what world that is that we get to do that,but I would love it.

[00:16:25] Jonah Gray: , Oh, man. I have so much to sayon this subject, , uh, you know, you, you mentioned limitations. There's a,there's a quote from Peter crone , who I will quote till the end of my days. Hesays, Fight for your limitations and you get to keep them. So basically any ofthese individuals who are you, who are limiting themselves and who can not letgo of this identity of, you know, I'm not good enough for X, Y, and Z.

I'm not, I'm not an athlete. I'm not a singer. It's like, well,you know, if you hold onto those, if you fight for them, I'm not going to, I'mnot going to keep trying to take them away from you. Like you get to keep them,nobody's going to take them away. So this, this process with, with like thewild mind, it's , so enlightening when you get to look at this map and begin tounderstand it, read about it.

and sit through these lectures and then, , you know, practicethe invitations that these guides give you, , because , you start to realizethat those things like the ways that you are limiting yourself, yourself arejust , these personality.

Sub-personalities that I mentioned. Um, coming in to protectthe psyche, , to protect you. Right? So , at some point in your life, , theinner critic came in to protect you from being , perhaps embarrassed again, oryeah, just feeling some type of pain, right? , You have this sense of danger ,that, , like the, the lion Tamer came in and said, you, you shouldn't be sowild.

, You see, you see what happens when you're so. , Do you, doyou see what happens when you're authentic? , And so then you, you pull back ,and then you grow into adulthood and you don't know why you , can't find asense of belonging or , , really connect with somebody or, because you know,when you really connect with someone, , it is , so dependent on whether or notyou can be authentic with them.

, And, when it comes to like with re thoughts and I love, Ilove how you brought. you know, the , burning things again, I love how youbrought that back up. So the burning burning these limitations, theseidentities, but it's also the way I frame it as pruning back, , uh, the, thethings that no longer serve us.

, So, , and that's what, that's what I, talk about in rethoughts about pages. Um, it's like a, it's like trees, right? So , we go inand prune branches that are. , Um, getting in the way of the growth of the tree, that are sapping too much nutrients or running into other branches. , Um, wepromote growth through taking something away.

, And so with these identities that we hold these limitationsor these self personalities, , it's all about pruning, putting them back, you know,it's like , taking them, taking them off so that. , This is , acknowledging forone thing, um, that they have served us because that is so important because ifyou come in and you say, , you know, my lion Tamer is , a real , piece of workand , I hate him and whatever else it's like, well, you know, there's thisanother self personality coming in.

, And acting fragmental toward fragmented toward, um, yourpsyche. , And so , ,, this whole process is all about holing, the psyche andrealizing that none of those voices are really separate from you. , And so, ,,one, one of these are part of a part of the practice is reintegrating thosevoices into the council. So although we're pruning them back, we're takingaway.

like there, hold on ourlives. , We're also inviting them back into the council. As , you know, wisemembers of our psyche who have came in , and we have such gratitude andreverence for them , because they came in, protected us. They came and saved usin our time of need. our painful time periods, but, the war of childhood isover, so they, they don't have to keep fighting it , or the war of adolescenceis over , or whatever else.

I mean, there's, there's just so many , uplift applicable areaswhere, , th th this can, this framework can be laid upon, can be viewed, uh,your life can be viewed through this framework. , And, uh, , you know, so , onething that came out of this trip , was a reassurance, a reaffirming, what Icall what we call like a mythical poetic identity.

, Um, so kind of earning your new name, your, your nature nameand, , and mine is panto. And I've talked about this on my podcast. I don'tknow , if you and I have talked about this, but.

[00:20:48] Andrew Monroe: No, we haven't. I'm excited.

[00:20:49] Jonah Gray: , Yeah. So, so, , so the imageryof Pando, the myth of panto, so P panto is, is, uh, Aspen Grove in Utah. It'slike 47,000 aspens. they're the clone of the same Aspen tree.

And it's considered , like one of the largest living aboveground organisms. , And, panto is Latin for , I spread or I expand. , And so ,me , as Panda or what, uh, what does that, what does that mean, , uh, for, totake on that identity? , It is, or a realization and an understanding thateveryone is pure potential. I am pure potential, and I often see people as purepotential, but , it has always been really hard for me to see myself that way.

, And so now it's practicing , the self. , Vision of purepotential, , this, uh, idea that , I can take up more space , that I am neverdone growing, that I am never done changing that I have a, there's a process ofcontinuous pruning that has to take place. , And so , part of the medicine ofpanto is also helping other people , realize that they are pure.

, And that they can grow into , more and more space, butthere's, , there is, you know, the only limitations are the ones that theyplace on themselves. , You know, I talk about how, , there is nothing on thisplanet that, , bears more weight than the limitations that I set on myself ,until I stopped feeding. , So when I stopped feeding , those sub personalities,when I start feeding those limitations, they becoming Macy.

, When I stop , taking on the identity of the victim, forexample, , then I'm no longer , that I am no longer the victim. , There's nolonger an identity that or a role that I take , that I hold. So , I pruned itback , and I can become, I can take up more.

space. really just letting go of these things that areultimately limiting.

[00:22:43] Andrew Monroe: That's cool. Panto. All right.

[00:22:46] Jonah Gray: Yeah. The.

[00:22:47] Andrew Monroe: Thanks for sharing. That'skinda,

that's pretty personal and I bet it's

not the easiest thing to do is sharing something about how youview yourself and what that.

[00:22:56] Jonah Gray: Well, you know, here's the, here'sthe thing personally. you know, we all talked about how we were gonna talkabout, this trip, , how are we going to present it to people? And, part of itis , what is your intention was sharing it. , cause like, you don't really wantto define what you experienced on these types of journeys, because it is sodeeply personal. And so , 'really, symbolic and experiential that it doesn'treally matter what you say. Nobody else can experience it , as well. , And so., It's this sense of phenomenology, like the sun set that I experience , or theexperience that.

I have when I see a sunset is not going to be your experience.And so when I describe it, I'm really taking away from, , you know, yourexperience of it.

Like go and look at the sun, go and go and watch the sunset. goon this journey, go, go and meet mystery. because when you start to define ,this , quote, mystery, , It is no longer mystery. It is no longer the thingthat you are setting out to, to go and meet. so, , and it really takes , theout of the whole experience.

But like, when, , you know, you want to talk about this on my,on your podcasts, that I, my, my philosophy is I'm an open book. , You justhave to keep turning the page, you know, like , I'll share , I'll tell anybodyreally anything. But, you know, they, they just have to make an inquiry into mylife. You know, it's like, , I'm not going to tell everybody about my life.

if they're not interested,

[00:24:16] Andrew Monroe: Yeah. That's how you ended upbeing a weirdo at the bar.

[00:24:19] Jonah Gray: Yeah. I'm not going to tell I'mnot going to come up and tell you about my high school days or else. But if youmake an inquiry into what I did on this trip or why I went on it or whateverelse, , I'll tell you all about it, you know?

So, , But that's just my philosophy and I, and I don't, I trynot to do it , in a way where I'm like, just trying to, , for one thing preach,but also, , um, just give a shock factor , of, , you know, cause that's oftenthe case. , I said, well, where are you been for two weeks? When I was in, Iwas in Utah and you can leave it as something like that.

It's like, okay, well, what, what were you doing there? I wason a vision quest. , Then you start, they ask these questions, you explain alittle bit, , then I was fasting for four days and they're like, wow, I don'tknow if I could do that. And so , it's , this weird sense of, did I, did I talkabout that just to, , present myself in a certain light or what is going on?

Like what is, what is my intention with even sharing this typeof information, but, I just love , these types of experiences and I want toexpose people to them. I want to facilitate them for other people. And I want,, I want them to be more accessible, for really anybody , because, , I mean,they're, they're pivotal moments.

They're they're catalysts. , So , I th I think they'renecessary.

[00:25:35] Andrew Monroe: , No, I get it. , That's good.And it's good to have that kind of. That talk with yourself. You're like, Hey,am I doing this? Because I want to look cool.

[00:25:41] Jonah Gray: Yeah.

[00:25:42] Andrew Monroe: help people? And, , and that'ssomething, you know, I run into it and I'm sure everybody else runs into ittoo. , It's hard to sometimes remind yourself that like, Hey, , I don't needto, , I need to check your ego, I guess, to check your ego at the door.

I run into that all the time. , personally, I think as soon aswe , start , putting other people first and. , Being less selfish more, youknow, you're still being selfish. You're, you're hoping to make yourself feelgood, but if you start putting other people's interests first, like, Hey, Ihelp this person with this information or this story?

[00:26:10] Jonah Gray: Yeah.

[00:26:11] Andrew Monroe: that really starts to help yougrow and feel , better and be just , that's the direction you should be goingas a person. I think so I could be wrong. , Uh, I am a lot, , but that's justmy opinion there.

[00:26:22] Jonah Gray: , Yeah,

[00:26:23] Andrew Monroe: Okay, . , Real quick. Before wejump into Storytime. , I have, I want to see if you have any hard hittingactual tips , on how you got through a four day fast, I've done a couple 72hour offense.

So three-day fast and periodically do a 24 hour fast and ,they're tough. are, they're tough. The 24 hours tough, the 72 hours is really,really tough. , I haven't done four days, for people out there, know, for ourfriends hanging out with us here. What did you do to get yourself through. ,Four days of fasting.

[00:26:51] Jonah Gray: , Yeah. , I honestly, I have, Ihad the unique experience too, to be able to go into the wilderness and dothis. I mean, it's, it's very different if you're at home , and you have all ofthis food, That's easily accessible. ,, so my recommendation, um, is if you getthose opportunities to go on something like this, like, uh, maybe a retreat or.

, specifically, uh, vision fast, then, , you know, take it, ,but I don't have , access to food. Well, we had an emergency food stash just incase I had to just in case like, uh, somebody close by in my group blew, blewtheir whistle, like they're hurt or they're in trouble or whatever else. , AndI have to break my fast and I have to break my solo and go check on them.

, When you're sitting there for four days , and you have anintention, , for being there, you have these ceremonies, you have these ways ofpreoccupying your mind. I mean, I did a lot of journaling. I read , old entriesin my journal to the trees and the birds and, you know, you get, you get pretty, out there with it, So , it's really just. , Occupying your mind and thenmaking it inaccessible there, you don't have the opportunity to eat. I mean, Ithought about food so much while I was out there. So I can imagine , doing itat home , where all of that food is a short drive away, you know? So, , themental, the mental game is, is not as bad.

Like the mental game is hardly, or at least the ha having tohave the willpower to not eat that granola bar , that I had said. , Is, it isnot that difficult because it's like, well, what am I going to do after that? ,like I can't pick out right now, So , , I'm not going to eat it.

[00:28:31] Andrew Monroe: , That's cool. , Well, awesome.Thanks. Did you, did you do any kind of gratitude practice or anything while. ,Hanging out food.

[00:28:38] Jonah Gray: , Yeah. So, I mean, , there is alot that comes up while you're. out there in the, in the wilderness, just kindof , with your own own thoughts. So , I did, I actually did a lot ofruminating. I did a lot of, like I said, thinking about food.

too. , And so then once you get past that though, , uh, yourealize how much time you've spent, , you know, doing what you do at home, orat least being in the same, a similar thought process at home.

And then you're like, let's. Build something with rocks. Let'sbe really intentional with this moment. And so, , you, uh, as far as gratitudegoes, you, you start , having gratitude for, , you know, the trees forproviding you some shade , or these dead trees that are providing branches foryou to make circles in the, on the ground.

And, , All, all of these just different things that younormally wouldn't think about. Uh, so you're just having , really this opendialogue with everything that is around you , and , with , my ceremony, my fireceremony that I did all my own, all my solo, , there was a specific intentionof letting go , of people , in my life who have made me feel an addict.

so, so I wrote a whole list of , it and it was mostly romanticrelationships. It's like I have a tendency to pursue somebody who, I , know I'mnot right for, I love who I know who is not right for me, , who I know ,really, , and it's not every person I've ever , sought a relationship with, butI do have a tendency to chase this.

, but , I formed a list. as per recommendation from my, fromone of my guides on this trip , and, when I had the fire ceremony and , , likereally let this go to the fire, I had just immense gratitude for , theseindividuals and teaching me something that, you know, I finally am , catchingthat I'm finally noticing.

as opposed to , saying. , Like I'm letting go of theseindividuals who made me feel inadequate. I, I ended up changing the verbiage ,and said something along the lines of, like I'm letting go of these individualswho I sought, , who I pursued , in order to have a continued belief that I aman adequate. , And it is not, it's not fair for them.

, It's not fair for me. , It's not fair for anybody in thecrossfire either, because, , because I am , really just going out andconfirming the bias, some confirming the belief that I am inadequate, that I amnot enough. And so , for me to find individuals and , place them in theseroles, I mean, it's set up for failure.

It's set up for, toxicity and insecurity and, uh, , Justfragmentation. So , I'm really just dying to that identity and choosing,choosing yourself. , And , there was a lot of gratitude, , gratitude that cameout of that. And then the, and then the death watch. I mean, , you write youreulogy , and then you share it with, , uh, you, you mindfully invite , lovedones , in spirit.

, Funeral that you're having this death lodge

[00:31:42] Andrew Monroe: Man who doesn't want to attendtheir own funeral. That sounds cool. ,

[00:31:46] Jonah Gray: yeah. And I've actually, I've,I've written my eulogy on several occasions. And, , uh, just because I findthat it is a, a catalyzing practice. but not once. Has it been like this? LikeI'll write it from the perspective of, , uh, like my little brother, cause Ifeel like he would have the most.

, I feel like he would. I mean, I'm sure all my brothers wouldspeak at my funeral if I were, , when, when that time comes. But, , it waslike, I always pictured Roman doing it. I always pictured my little brotherdoing it. , And, uh, on this one though, and in some, sorry, in some eulogies,I give myself like a long life.

Sometimes I give myself a short life. , It's just kind of whereI'm at depending. , But in this one that I wrote for my death lodge, I wrote itfrom the perspective of, my son, I ever have a son. So, don't have any kids forthose of you listening. don't, not, that's not even on my radar at the moment,but, if I were to give myself a long life writing this eulogy, , I, I w I wroteit from the perspective of my son , and.

looking at my life and what I would like to be, , how I wouldlike my son to see me, , really humbling and , develop. So, and, and Imentioned, you know, like, , you know, he could be an asshole. I know he couldbe, he would tell me all the stories about the times where he, he was a realpiece of work, from the perspective of my son.

And, and, , but then. , That's when like the pain kind of cameout and, , he says , something along the lines of like, like if you asked whathe was, if you asked him personally, he'd tell you that , he is pure potential,, and then he'd tell you, , and then he'd tell you that. So are you, , and so ,after, and that, and that Mo all that pure potential stuff really came up in.

, My death lodge and I'm sitting there , practically buried,looking at the stars, , just , contemplating all of these people in my life,who might've shown up to something like this Memorial service , and all thepeople who'd, who'd be invited and, and , , seeing them as pure potential and,, holding them close. Okay.

, Maybe seeing them weep, maybe seeing them laugh at, at thefunny, , you know, stories that we'd have together, the experiences andwhatever else. , And , then coming out and , being like, I get to go see them.I get to go see , , all of these people. , I'm going to see my grandparents. Iget to see, , um, you know, just anybody that I love, anybody who was invited.

I get to go see him.

[00:34:09] Andrew Monroe: , Wait at my dead then.

[00:34:10] Jonah Gray: , No. It, you were, you wereinvited to the, to the Memorial.

[00:34:13] Andrew Monroe: , Oh, good. , Well, and so Ilove the concept of, for anybody that's, I, I think it's great to think aboutdeath , because , it kind of goes back to the personality thing. , If peopledon't acknowledge. , I think it causes problems down the road, but , for thesake of people who maybe can't handle it emotionally, right now, , I did my ownlittle vision thing through this other program.

And we won't get into that very much. But , one of the prompts,whenever we were working on vision stuff was actually, you did this similar. ,Uh, technique where you described your like birthday or 90th birthday, and youabout, you know, who's the person who knew you the best and would , give aspeech at your birthday party and about the life that you had.

So it's a way to sidestep the fact that you're dead , and belike, who's the important person who is at, excuse me, who is at the. Party thebirthday party for you, like who are all the people in your life that haveshown up? Do you have kids? is that your kids talking is it's your wife or yourhusband talking, , you know, what do they say about you?

What is your legacy look like? All that kind of stuff. It'sreally good to kind of get that focused. , What do I look like at the end ofthe line? Like where, where does this path that I am walking, take me workbackwards on what people are going to say, because it does, you know, if you'rebeing an to people and that's kinda your thing , and you spread it out, no one's going to be at your birthdayparty when you're 90.

one's going to be atyour funeral. And so , it's good to think about it. I liked that conceptand liked the funeral, like the birthday party, whatever it takes to get you.Reflecting on the future, which is a weird thing to say out loud, reflecting onthe future.

[00:35:44] Jonah Gray: um,

[00:35:44] Andrew Monroe: like it.

[00:35:44] Jonah Gray: , Yeah. I kind of, I kind of frameit as, as what seeds are you planting

[00:35:48] Andrew Monroe: it.

[00:35:50] Jonah Gray: Yeah. And, and so , what, what areyou going to, so when you are older, are you going to, if you are plantingseeds of fear, , you're gonna, you're gonna so regret. , If you're planting seedsof love, you're gonna so gratitude. If you're planting seeds of joining, you'regonna sell that gratitude.

, so , it is our, sorry. , I believe, I believe I'm using thewrong word reap,

[00:36:10] Andrew Monroe: okay, we'll go with it. We'llgo with

[00:36:12] Jonah Gray: we'll go or We'll go with it.Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, uh, , yeah, so it just kind of framing that, like whatkind of fruit are you going to be harvesting at the end? , You know, whatflowers do you get to smell? What , are they weeds? Are they, , you know, soit's just framing it in this way that, and you know, I've planted plenty ofsour fruit in my life and.

, That's why I've come to this space of, attempting to , prunethat back, attempting to, , de route those seeds and, , you know, try again. ,So.

[00:36:44] Andrew Monroe: , No. That's awesome, man. , Ilike it. , Well, I know you've listened to the podcast before. , So, you know,this last part is your challenge to the listeners or friends that areparticipating in this conversation with us.

[00:36:55] Jonah Gray: Hm,,

[00:36:56] Andrew Monroe: you're, know, if you have astory you want to share, so , I'll open it up. If you've got a story of let'sjump into it, if not drop us a challenge and we'll close it out and , let you,you know, , keep on living.

[00:37:07] Jonah Gray: ,, man stories. So many stories totell, but, pertaining to this, so,

okay. Okay. okay, man. But there's just so much to choose from.Can I get a prompt?

[00:37:22] Andrew Monroe: We have. Let's see. How about,, what was the time that.

, We're afraid for your life.

[00:37:28] Jonah Gray: , Okay. Yeah. , well, , historyof, as a rock climber, there's been plenty Of times where, , where you're in asketchy situation and falling, but, , I'd say specifically the one that camefirst , to mind, , I used to run in the canyon on a regular basis. I'd go everyweek. , And, run different trails, uh, Palo Duro canyon, for those of you whoare listening.

, and , on this particular day, , I hadn't brought any, youknow, anything with me. I didn't, I didn't bring my music. I didn't bring, um,a bunch of water that I normally bring , , and I decided , to just run as faras I could. and , , so I took a. , Rock the rock garden trail up to the, to therim of the canyon. So you start , at the bottom of the canyon and you, you ,climb elevation until you're out.

, And then I ran the rim , and then , I kept running the roomand, , the rock climber in me was like, oh, look at this crack, look at this,uh, , this thing that I could climb down into , and. , So I did, I got, I gotback down into the canyon and then, and then I was like, okay, well, I'm goingto climb back up because there's not. really a, a trail , to get back to mycar.

, Um, so I was just going to go back , and, um, I found thisother crack because you know, being me, I have to explore, I can't go the sameway. , Uh, climbed down

and

[00:38:47] Andrew Monroe: not allowed.

[00:38:49] Jonah Gray: it just doesn't, it doesn'tcompute. So , I'm climbing up into this other car that, um, it's essentiallythis sh this, uh, slab of the canyon wall has fallen off of the canyon , andit's standing upright a little, a little , , angled, a little, uh, , tilted and, I climb up in there , and see.

, Chiming my way up this chimney, this, these, these two slabsof rock that are , close enough together to climb up , and I'm looking down ,and I'm like, , it's too late. , If you, if you wanted to go back now, youcouldn't, it'd be more dangerous to do that than to , keep going. , And ifyou've ever been to Poudre canyon, everything is.

, Like all of the rock is sand it's sandstone. So it'sbreaking, it's brittle. in running shoes, not climbing shoes. , And my handsare just sliding down the stone, but wedged in between these two pieces and I'mthe Kenyan walls are pretty tall, so I'm like 40 feet up. , And since one ofthose walls is tilted , on.

, Getting further, like it's getting wider and wider and wider.And so I'm pretty spread Eagle and trying to , get out of this hole. , Andthere's a cactus at the very of, of this alleged. So it's like, I got a dot.Not only do I have to, , you know, jump out of this hole , at the very top, Ihave to Dodge this cactus.

, So I'm I keep looking down and I'm like, well, I mean, ,You've made it this far. Like no going back now. And, , it was weird. Likethere was a moment where , I thought like I could die. Like right now I coulddie right now. , I get slipped. This, this rock could giveaway. , And I, nobodywould find me for , a while probably.

, cause I also didn't really tell anybody where I was going.Don't do that. People if you're listening, if you, if you go on a run. , Andthe wilderness or state park or national park tell people where you're going. ,And, uh, , I make it out , just fine. You know, it's, it's really just all inall a head game. And then, , potentially just an accidental rock breakage couldhave killed me, but, , you know, it's, uh, it's those moments like that whereyou are.

, Close to, you know, anything could go wrong right now.Anything could go wrong and I could die , that you're like, , wow, I feelalive. feel alive as hell right now. , And it's, it's one of my favoritememories. It's not, it's not as like , epic and, and crazy as some, some otherthings that people have experienced as far as near death experiences.

And I've also almost , died of a heat stroke out there. , Andthat was probably scarier than, this situation, but, , you know, it's ,dangerous and alluring is, is the words that are used to describe it. You know,those, , those things that make you feel alive, those things that, really ,make you, uh, , put you up close and personal, to your mortality.

, So , that's

[00:41:41] Andrew Monroe: completely agree, man. Iactually have almost the exact same story over in Utah, but , we'll save thatfor another time.

[00:41:48] Jonah Gray: Okay. , All right.

[00:41:49] Andrew Monroe: , Well, cool. Do you have achallenge for our guys and girls listening?

[00:41:52] Jonah Gray: , Okay. Challenge. , go wander, gospend a day. find, find somewhere where you don't get a service, you don't get,you don't get cell phone service, , you don't have internet. you don't even, ,uh, I got and take your phone just in case, , don't focus on food, , bringwater , and just spend a day wandering and , see what happens.

, See what, see what a medicine. , So , that's what that's,that's my challenge.

[00:42:20] Andrew Monroe: , That's awesome. I hope somepeople listen to that because I think it'd be pretty, , pretty interesting forthem and me. I'll probably take you up on it. So

[00:42:27] Jonah Gray: Yeah. And take a picture, tag mein it. Shoot. Go

[00:42:30] Andrew Monroe: ha. ha. , Well, Jonah, thankyou so much for coming on and sharing some of your wisdom and a story aboutyour trip. And it was , quite a cool experience that I had not heard of anybodyelse doing. So thank you so much for your time,

man.

[00:42:42] Jonah Gray: Thanks for having me. , It's

[00:42:43] Andrew Monroe: Of course, , anytime , toeverybody else. Thank you for joining us as well.

Don't forget to check out skellies.com for some cool clothesfrom Jonah's group. , And please check out the real thoughts podcast as well.Jonah does a great job over there, and I think you'd really enjoy it. , Weappreciate you guys. And we look forward to connecting with you soon. ,

[00:43:00] Jonah Gray: I said all a couple of times tomyself. Well, while you were introducing me, it it was sweet. It was reallyheartfelt, but, , I, it feels honestly like waking up from a dream. Coming backinto reality., I was gone for 12 days on this, vision quest and, you know,you're out in the woods, you're just with 12 other people for the most part.

And then, uh, we go, we went on a solo during, , three days ofthat trip. So then you're by yourself. And so even coming back from that. Those12 other people, 12, 13 other people. It's also like waking up from a dream andthen back into society. It's it's like inception of dreams, honestly,

[00:43:43] Andrew Monroe: All right. So let's go into thebasics on that. What was your vision quest like? How did this come about? Whereexactly were you? What did you do while you were on it? Let's just jump in andgive me the whole data dump of information. you wanted to do this in the firstplace, how you got involved, everything you can think of, and I will pepper youwith questions as I can, but

make me do on this, I get to just sit back and listen to thehappier I'm going to be.

[00:44:08] Jonah Gray: I mean, honestly, 12 days whereyou begin, but, , How I came about doing this, how I got introduced to thisprogram. Uh It's through the animus valley Institute, , as I initially startedworking with them through, , doing their wild mind intensive couple of yearsago. Um, , so the whole program was kind of based in, , or is foundationallybased in bill plot books, , the wild mind nature and the human soul soul craft,and, uh, , his newest book.

, the journey of soulinitiation. , so that first wild mind intensive was based solely off of a wildmind. Um, , and all of this is, , like ecotherapy. So he provides a framework,a model of the psyche, a map of the psyche, , to kind of cultivate wholenessand, , reduce fragmentation and kind of really just sort the inner voices thatare going on your, your internal.

Dialogues like with your inner critic, , loyal soldier, , andit's, and it's all archetypal. , I don't know if you're familiar with any likeyoung youngian psychology. Um, , but he talks about archetypes in all thesedifferent cultures where, , they're really symbolic of what's going oninternally versus representing something that's actually happening.

I can in mythology and, , You know, the archetypes of the heroand all of these different things. So, , it's all, it's all symbolic, but, , in this framework you're able to observe thatI am this whole thing. You know, a lot of people we have, we have this tendencyto, to, , fragment, , take these personality tests and then like put people inboxes and categorize things.

And one thing that this does is. Makes it very clear that thisisn't a diagnosis. This is all self-reflective. , it's literally like lookingon a map, trying to figure out where you are. And so, , in this, in this trip,this one was, , Seoul centric. It's a, , without looking at the map to kinda,it's kind of confusing, but it's a Western facet, uh, emphasize., And theWestern facet where you go deep into mystery and into, , like dying toidentities that do you know, a lot that no longer serve you and looking at yourshadows and various things like that, where it is, what bill plot can kind ofdescribes is, , , in this developmental stage of the psyche, it's kind of thiswander in the cocoon.

So if you take those images, Of the cocoon a caterpillar.cocoon is the tomb for the caterpillar and the womb for the butterfly. So it isthis, , really this Phoenix like transformation, this, this dying to whatever Iwas so that I can be born to whatever I can become.

[00:46:49] Andrew Monroe: I like it. So you basicallywere looking at, and I might be interpreting too much. You were kind ofbreaking out of an archetype. You're kind of trying to shift your mindset fromwhat you were maybe operating in, like the mindset that you had about who youwere as a person you were looking to kind of upgrade into a more open-mindedless culturally biased mindset.

Is that kind of what it was.

[00:47:13] Jonah Gray: Uh, , yeah, so there's, there'sseveral different reasons why somebody would go on a vision quest. , Sospecifically though, , in the beginning of, , this trip we have, what's calleda council war where everybody is circled up. Everybody has a chance to talk. Ithink you get about five minutes to speak and we all, , describe our intentionfor this journey, , for this trip.

And so what are described is, , there are these feelings of, ,or this identity of inadequacy and undeserving, , and really just illpreparedness for life that come up with me on a regular basis that I've beenworking on letting go. And that's one of the things that I was dying to on thistrip. So, um, , one of these beliefs about myself, my.

Is this a belief that I am not good enough, you know? So thatwas, that was my intention. It's not always, , you know, biases that we hold, ,you know, like societal beliefs and biases and things of that nature, but itcan be, um, , so it's largely like, like I said, uh, with, with this map,, it'slargely looking at the map and figuring out where you are and where you need tocalibrate to.

So. , in this Northern facet, the north is, , the nurturinggenerative adult. That's what the facet is called. , and I am always in thenorth. Maybe I need to recalibrate move south towards, , the wild indigenousone. So if you think of the nurturing generative adult as kind of, , yourinternal. , how am I parenting myself internally?

So, , fragmented ways of doing that is, is, , with loyalsoldier or, , the inner critic. Uh, , as I, as I brought up earlier, there'salso the lion Tamer. I mean, there's, so there's this huge list of justdifferent sub-personalities that come up in each of these facets. so forexample, the lion king.

, teams kind of thewildness of the, of the psyche, wildness of the whole and in the south is thatwild indigenous one. That's where, , you know, your sense of belonging is, ,indigenous being, , belonging to something specifically though belonging toyour, to your psyche belonging, just, just having a general sense of belonging.

, so when you'refragmenting in the north, a lot of people have a tendency to also not feel likethey belong. So just for example.

[00:49:28] Andrew Monroe: So to oversimplify this foranybody not keeping up, is

[00:49:31] Jonah Gray: Hm.

[00:49:32] Andrew Monroe: you're just working on like,Hey, I need to be a better, more rounded person.

[00:49:37] Jonah Gray: Yeah, yeah. It's , uh, it, it isto simplify it. You could say that, it.

and, uh,, you know, and it's not necessarily just well-roundedit's it's, uh,, You know, there, there are plenty of people out there who, ,continue to live a fragmented lifestyle who are very well-rounded and have,have a lot of stuff together and, you know, are very happy.

And, , there, so it's not really about, , I don't know, it growthin, in the sense that, , you need to come and do this type of work. , but itcan be so healing as. , like when, if that person still continues to not find asense of belonging anywhere they go, although they, they thrive in most areasof their life.

Um, , they live apretty, a generally healthy lifestyle. , but they would like to have, uh,,have, uh, , make an inquiry into why I don't have this sense of belonginganywhere I go. , this might be a good, , tool. A good, a good idea. Yeah.

[00:50:33] Andrew Monroe: Okay. I like it. Now, the part,whenever we talked about. I ran into you at the coffee shop. I think we at thecoffee shop, that's probably where you were and you were telling me about this.I really liked the concept of what you guys were doing. So you were for 12 daysin Utah, correct?

[00:50:49] Jonah Gray: Yes.

Yeah.

[00:50:51] Andrew Monroe: So what was it actually like?

What what'd you do for 12 days?

[00:50:54] Jonah Gray: So at the beginning of it, , so wewere, we were at the four corners of Utah. So where we were on this Mesa, theycalled it, , beauty's Mesa. , it's got another name. I can't remember theactual name of it, but, , we can see like Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado fromthis position. And. Just taken in this beautiful view of like the canyon landsand the mountains, and you can see Shiprock from where we were.

, so, so that's part ofit is just being exposed to, , really these panoramic views, these, , thesenatural phenomenon, these trees, the Ponderosa Pines, , and really becomingacclimated to that as opposed to. , my clocks and phones and just getting outof the societal tune that we're constantly humming to ourselves.

So, , that's part of it is letting go of, , my day-to-day roleso that it can be present here. , and in the beginning of that process, , it'sall preparation for, , our solo, uh, , and on our solo. , we were also fastingfor it. So for four days, , we fasted and for three of those four days?

we were completely alone completely by ourselves.

So,

[00:52:04] Andrew Monroe: Wow.

[00:52:05] Jonah Gray: yeah. And, and it's, uh,, youknow, there's like this shock value to it. , but you know, like there is it's,I, I really just want people to know about this practice, you know, like, ,Recommend doing this type of stuff safely. I don't recommend just saying, Hey,I'm going to do a four day fast. I'm on my own.

And like, I strongly recommend having something like thatfacilitated. , but you know, a lot of people, when you tell them this, they'relike, geez, like, I don't know. I could go four days without food. And it'slike, well, , it'd be nice to try. Maybe you should try it. You know? It'slike, you never know until you give it a try.

With the preparation leading up to it. , it's kind of settingthe intention for what we want or what we're going to get out of going on oursolo, um, , what practices we're going to do. Are we going to do any type ofceremony? , and then why even do those ceremonies? So for example, leading upto it, we had a fair fire ceremony.

, so prior to the trip,we're instructed to bring. An object to offer to this fire that is symbolic ofmaybe an obstacle, , or a belief or an identity that we can burn and let go of.So, , during this fire ceremony, you kind of state your intentions with the, ,object that you're offering to it. , Like why you're offering this, this itemup and letting it go, letting it, like giving it to the fire.

And, and it's just like this beautiful, intentional practiceand, , mindful makes you so aware of the, the things that you hold on to, andthat the identities That you claim to have and realize that. You are not reallyany of them. You can become whatever you'd like to become. So, , with this,this w with the ceremonies, they, they say that,, ceremony is simply, it has abeginning, a middle and an end.

Right? so it's, it's kinda like a story, right? You have to.Open up your ceremony some way maybe with poetry, maybe with prayer, maybe witha song or dance or something that really grounds you in this thing. , cause causepretty quickly you'll go, , just start going through the motions of theseceremonies.

Like you'll bring something to a fire or you'll throw it in andit doesn't really mean anything at that point. So it has to have your intentionset into it. It has to have this unit. , ritual your these rights that arepassed and, , you then have the middle part, the ceremony in the middle, , themeat of it, where that's, where you're offering something to the fire or, or, ,I did a death lodge on my solo, , where I essentially had, uh,, a Memorialservice, a funeral, , and.

In the middle of that, I'm sitting in a hole that I dug myselfand have I laid these logs over me, like I'm put away in a casket. And prior,prior to entering that hole, read my eulogy. I invited everybody my loved onesto my Memorial service, excuse me. And, uh,, then climbed into the whole.

Pondered what it is, what it's meaning to what it means to diein this moment. What is dying at this moment? , and then after that, , kind ofhave this, you call it? birthing ceremony? I don't really know what you'd callit. Like, uh, like at the end of the, the beginning, the middle and the end.

So at the end having a birth, you know, what am I now? Whatabout. , so what identities do I get to hold now?

[00:55:32] Andrew Monroe: That is so cool. And I,something you said earlier about how people have these preconceived notions ofwho they are.

[00:55:39] Jonah Gray: Hmm.

[00:55:40] Andrew Monroe: I think that is so importantfor people to get past because lots and lots humans that I've met. They'll saythings they'll say, well, I don't, I don't eat that kind of food or I don't,don't try those kinds of things or that's, that's not who I am.

And what they're saying is I don't branch out from who Iperceive myself as a person.

[00:55:59] Jonah Gray: Yeah,

[00:56:00] Andrew Monroe: it hurts me so bad every timesomeone says that because you're, they're limiting themselves to limitthemselves. And that is just, I can't imagine that's good for you. And itdefinitely isn't interesting. It doesn't, it doesn't bring anything to yourlife by these arbitrary boundaries on, well, this is what I do, because that'swhat I do. And like, well, don't you want to try as cargo don't you want to seewhat happens when you dedicate yourself to running a marathon or, you know,whatever it is, or, Hey, maybe you should be a better person. Maybe, you are.OCD, maybe you're just being an ass. Maybe if you relax a little bit and startcaring about other people, you not be proud of the fact that you're kind ofrude to people about this thing. So I don't know people, there's a lot ofpeople that have trouble with that. So I love the concept of using a ritual to.Wash away or away some of these preconceived personality notions that peoplehave to grow as a person. Cause that, I think that would be so great ifeverybody was required to do that.

I don't know. know what world that is that we get to do that,but I would love it.

[00:57:05] Jonah Gray: Oh, man. I have so much to say onthis subject, , you know, you, you mentioned limitations. There's a, there's aquote from Peter crone who I will quote till the end of my days. He says, Fightfor your limitations and you get to keep them. So basically any of theseindividuals who are you, who are limiting themselves and who can not let go ofthis identity of, you know, I'm not good enough for X, Y, and Z.

I'm not, I'm not an athlete. I'm not a singer. It's like, well,you know, if you hold onto those, if you fight for them, I'm not going to, I'mnot going to keep trying to take them away from you. Like you get to keep them,nobody's going to take them away. So this, this process with, with like thewild mind, , it's so enlightening when you get to look at this map and begin tounderstand it, read about it.

and sit through these lectures and then, you know, practice theinvitations that these guides give you, because you start to realize that thosethings like the ways that you are limiting yourself, yourself are just thesepersonality.

That I mentioned. ,coming in to protect the psyche, to protect you. Right? So at some point inyour life, the inner critic came in to protect you from being perhapsembarrassed again, or yeah, just feeling some type of pain, right? You havethis sense of danger that, , like the, the lion Tamer came in and said, you,you shouldn't be so wild.

You see, you see what happens when you're so. Do you, do yousee what happens when you're authentic? And so then you, you pull back and thenyou grow into adulthood and you don't know why you can't find a sense ofbelonging or really connect with somebody or, , because you know, when youreally connect with someone, it is so dependent on whether or not you can beauthentic with them.

And, , when it comes to like with re thoughts and I love, Ilove how you brought. , you know, the burning things again, I love how youbrought that back up. So the burning burning these limitations, theseidentities, but it's also the way I frame it as pruning back, , the, the thingsthat no longer serve us.

So, and that's what, that's what I, , talk about in re thoughtsabout pages. , it's like a, it's like trees, right? So we go in and prunebranches that are. , getting in the way of the growth of the tree that aresapping too much nutrients or running into other branches. , we promote growththrough taking something away.

And so with these identities that we hold these limitations orthese self personalities, it's all about pruning, putting them back, you know,it's like taking them, taking them off so that. This is acknowledging for onething, , that they have served us because that is so important because if youcome in and you say, you know, my lion Tamer is a real piece of work and I hatehim and whatever else it's like, well, you know, there's this another selfpersonality coming in.

And acting fragmented toward, , your psyche. And so this wholeprocess is all about holing, the psyche and realizing that none of those voicesare really separate from you. And so, , part of the practice is reintegratingthose voices into the council. So although we're pruning them back, we'retaking away.

, like there, hold onour lives. We're also inviting them back into the council. As you know, wisemembers of our psyche who have came in and we have such gratitude and reverencefor them because they came in, protected us. They came and saved us in our timeof need. , our painful time periods, but, , you know, like the war of childhoodis over, so they, they don't have to keep fighting it or the war of adolescenceis over or whatever else.

I mean, there's, there's just so many applicable areas where, ,th th this can, this framework can be laid upon, , can be viewed, , your lifecan be viewed through this framework. And, , you know, so one thing that cameout of this trip was a reassurance, a reaffirming, , what I call what we calllike a mythical poetic identity.

, so kind of earningyour new name, your, your nature name and, and mine is panto. And I've talkedabout this on my podcast. I don't know if you and I have talked about this,but.

[01:01:19] Andrew Monroe: No, we haven't. I'm excited.

[01:01:20] Jonah Gray: Yeah. So, so, so the imagery ofPando, the myth of panto, , so P panto is, is, , Aspen Grove in Utah. It's like47,000 aspens. they're the clone of the same Aspen tree.

And it's considered like one of the largest living above groundorganisms. And, , panto is Latin for I spread or I expand. And so me as Pandaor what, , what does that, what does that mean, , for, to take on thatidentity? It is, or a realization and an understanding that everyone is purepotential. I am pure potential, and I often see people as pure potential, butit has always been really hard for me to see myself that way.

And so now it's practicing the self. Vision of pure potential,this, , idea that I can take up more space that I am never done growing, that Iam never done changing that I have a, there's a process of continuous pruningthat has to take place. And so part of the medicine of panto is also helpingother people realize that they are pure.

And that they can grow into more and more space, but there's,there is, you know, the only limitations are the ones that they place onthemselves. You know, I talk about how, , there is nothing on this planet that,, bears more weight than the limitations that I set on myself until I stoppedfeeding. So when I stopped feeding those sub personalities, when I startfeeding those limitations, they becoming Macy.

When I stop taking on the identity of the victim, for example,then I'm no longer that I am no longer the victim. There's no longer anidentity that or a role that I take that I hold. So I pruned it back and, I cantake up more.

space. So really just letting go of these things that areultimately limiting.

[01:03:12] Andrew Monroe: That's cool. Panto. All right.

[01:03:15] Jonah Gray: Yeah.

[01:03:16] Andrew Monroe: Thanks for sharing. That'skinda, that's pretty personal and I bet it's not the easiest thing to do issharing something about how you view yourself and what that.

[01:03:24] Jonah Gray: Well, you know, here's the, here'sthe thing personally. , you know, we all talked about how we were gonna talkabout, , this trip, how are we going to present it to people? And, and, youknow, part of it is what is your intention was sharing it. , 'cause like, youdon't really want to define what you experienced on these types of journeys,because it is so deeply personal. and so really, , symbolic and experientialthat it doesn't really matter what you say. Nobody else can experience it aswell. And so. It's this sense of phenomenology, like the sun set that Iexperience or the experience that.

I have when I see a sunset is not going to be your experience.And so when I describe it, I'm really taking away from, you know, yourexperience of it.

Like go and look at the sun, go and go and watch the sunset. goon this journey, go, go and meet mystery. , because when you start to definethis quote, mystery, It is no longer mystery. It is no longer the thing thatyou are setting out to, to go and meet. , so, and it really takes the out ofthe whole experience.

But like, when, you know, you want to talk about this on my, onyour podcasts, that I, my, my philosophy is I'm an open book. You just have tokeep turning the page, you know, like I'll share I'll tell anybody reallyanything. But, you know, they, they just have to make an inquiry into my life.You know, it's like, I'm not going to tell everybody about my life.

, if they're not interested,

[01:04:46] Andrew Monroe: Yeah. That's how you ended up beinga weirdo at the bar.

[01:04:48] Jonah Gray: Yeah. I'm not going to tell I'mnot going to come up and tell you about my high school days or else. But if youmake an inquiry into what I did on this trip or why I went on it or whateverelse, I'll tell you all about it, you know?

So, , But that's just my philosophy and I, and I don't, I trynot to do it in a way where I'm like, just trying to, , for one thing preach,but also, , just give a shock factor of, you know, cause that's often the case.I said, well, where are you been for two weeks? When I was in, I was in Utahand you can leave it as something like that.

It's like, okay, well, what, what were you doing there? , I wason a vision quest. Then you start, they ask these questions, you explain alittle bit, then I was fasting for four days and they're like, wow, I don'tknow if I could do that. And so it's this weird sense of, , did I, did I talkabout that just to, present myself in a certain light or, or what is going on?

Like what is, what is my intention with even sharing this typeof information, but, , You know, I just love these types of experiences and Iwant to expose people to them. I want to facilitate them for other people. AndI want, I want them to be more accessible, , for really anybody because, Imean, they're, they're pivotal moments.

They're they're catalysts. So I th I think they're necessary.

[01:06:06] Andrew Monroe: No, I get it. That's good. Andit's good to have that kind of. That talk with yourself. You're like, Hey, am Idoing this? Because I want to look cool.

[01:06:12] Jonah Gray: Yeah.

[01:06:13] Andrew Monroe: help people? And, and that'ssomething, you know, I run into it and I'm sure everybody else runs into ittoo. It's hard to sometimes remind yourself that like, Hey, I don't need to, Ineed to check your ego, I guess, to check your ego at the door.

I run into that all the time. personally, I think as soon as westart putting other people first and. Being less selfish more, you know, you'restill being selfish. You're, you're hoping to make yourself feel good, but ifyou start putting other people's interests first, like, Hey, I help this personwith this information or this story?

[01:06:41] Jonah Gray: Yeah.

[01:06:41] Andrew Monroe: that really starts to help yougrow and feel better and be just that's the direction you should be going as aperson. I think so I could be wrong. , I am a lot, but that's just my opinionthere.

[01:06:53] Jonah Gray: Yeah,

[01:06:54] Andrew Monroe: Okay. Real quick. Before wejump into Storytime. , I have, I want to see if you have any hard hittingactual tips on how you got through a four day fast, I've done a couple 72 houroffense.

So three-day fast and periodically do a 24 hour fast andthey're tough. are, they're tough. The 24 hours tough, the 72 hours is really,really tough. I haven't done four days, , for people out there, know, for ourfriends hanging out with us here. What did you do to get yourself through. Fourdays of fasting.

[01:07:22] Jonah Gray: Yeah. , Well, I honestly, I have,I had the unique experience too, to be able to go into the wilderness and dothis. , I mean, it's, it's very different if you're at home and you have all ofthis food, That's easily accessible., so my recommendation, , is if you getthose opportunities to go on something like this, like, , maybe a retreat or.

, specifically, , visionfast, , then, you know, take it, but I don't have access to food. Well, we hadan emergency food stash just in case I had to just in case like, , somebodyclose by in my group blew, blew their whistle, like they're hurt or they're introuble or whatever else. And I have to break my fast and I have to break mysolo and go check on them.

When you're sitting there for four days and you have anintention, , for being there, you have these ceremonies, you have these ways ofpreoccupying your mind. , I mean, I did a lot of journaling. I, I read oldentries in my journal to the trees and the birds and, you know, you get, youget pretty out there with it, you know?

So it's, it's really just. Occupying your mind and then makingit inaccessible there, you don't have the opportunity to eat. , I mean, Ithought about food so much while I was out there. So I can imagine doing it athome where all of that food is a short drive away, you know? So, , the mental,the mental game is, is not as bad.

Like the mental game is hardly, , or at least the ha having tohave the willpower to not eat that granola bar that I had said. Is, it is notthat difficult because it's like, well, what am I going to do after that? Youknow, like I can't pick out right now, so I'm not going to eat it.

[01:09:05] Andrew Monroe: That's cool. Well, awesome.Thanks. Did you, did you do any kind of gratitude practice or anything while.Hanging out food.

[01:09:11] Jonah Gray: Yeah. So, , I mean, there is a lotthat comes up while you're. , out there in the, in the wilderness, just kind ofwith your own own thoughts. So I did, I actually did a lot of ruminating. I dida lot of, , like I said, thinking about food.

too. And so then once you get past that though, , you realizehow much time you've spent, you know, doing what you do at home, , or at leastbeing in the same, a similar thought process at home.

And then you're like, let's. Build something with rocks. Let'sbe really intentional with this moment. And so, , you, , as far as gratitudegoes, you, you start having gratitude for, you know, the trees for providingyou some shade or these dead trees that are providing branches for you to makecircles in the, on the ground.

And, , All, all of these just different things that younormally wouldn't think about. , so you're just having really this opendialogue with everything that is around you and with my ceremony, , my fireceremony that I did all my own, all my solo, , there was a specific intentionof letting go of people in my life who have made me feel an addict.

, so, so I wrote a wholelist of it and it was mostly romantic relationships. It's like I have atendency to pursue somebody who, , I know I'm not right for, I love who I knowwho is not right for me, who I know really, and it's not every person I've eversought a relationship with, but I do have a tendency to chase this.

, but I formed a list. ,as per recommendation from my, from one of my guides on this trip and, , when Ihad the fire ceremony and like really let this go to the fire, , I had justimmense gratitude for these individuals and teaching me something that, youknow, I finally am catching that I'm finally noticing.

as opposed to saying. Like I'm letting go of these individualswho made me feel inadequate. I, I ended up changing the verbiage and saidsomething along the lines of, , like I'm letting go of these individuals who Isought, who I pursued in order to have a continued belief that I am anadequate. And it is not, it's not fair for them.

It's not fair for me. It's not fair for anybody in thecrossfire either, because, because I am really just going out and confirmingthe bias, some confirming the belief that I am inadequate, that I am notenough. And so for me to find individuals and place them in these roles, Imean, it's set up for failure.

It's set up for, , toxicity and insecurity and, , Justfragmentation. So I'm really just dying to that identity and choosing, choosingyourself. And there was a lot of gratitude, gratitude that came out of that.And then the, and then the death watch. I mean, you write your eulogy and thenyou share it with, , you, you mindfully invite loved ones in spirit.

Funeral that you're having this death lodge

[01:12:13] Andrew Monroe: Man who doesn't want to attendtheir own funeral. That sounds cool.

[01:12:16] Jonah Gray: yeah. And I've actually, I've,I've written my eulogy on several occasions. And, , just because I find that itis a, a catalyzing practice. , but not once. Has it been like this? Like I'llwrite it from the perspective of, , like my little brother, cause I feel likehe would have the most.

I feel like he would. I mean, I'm sure all my brothers wouldspeak at my funeral if I were, , when, when that time comes. But, , it waslike, I always pictured Roman doing it. I always pictured my little brotherdoing it. And, , on this one though, , and in some, sorry, in some eulogies, Igive myself like a long life.

Sometimes I give myself a short life. It's just kind of whereI'm at depending. , But in this one that I wrote for my death lodge, I wrote itfrom the perspective of, , my son, I ever have a son. So, don't have any kidsfor those of you listening. don't, not, that's not even on my radar at themoment, but, , if I were to give myself a long life writing this eulogy, , I, Iw I wrote it from the perspective of my son and.

looking at my life and what I would like to be, how I wouldlike my son to see me, , really humbling and develop. So, and, and I mentioned,you know, like, you know, he could be an asshole. I know he could be, he wouldtell me all the stories about the times where he, he was a real piece of work, ,from the perspective of my son.

And, and, but then. That's when like the pain kind of came outand, , he says something along the lines of like, like if you asked what hewas, if you asked him personally, he'd tell you that he is pure potential, andthen he'd tell you, and then he'd tell you that. So are you, and so after, andthat, and that Mo all that pure potential stuff really came up in.

My death lodge and I'm sitting there practically buried,looking at the stars, just contemplating all of these people in my life, whomight've shown up to something like this Memorial service and all the peoplewho'd, who'd be invited and, and seeing them as pure potential and, , holdingthem close. Okay.

Maybe seeing them weep, maybe seeing them laugh at, at the funny,you know, stories that we'd have together, the experiences and whatever else.And then coming out and being like, I get to go see them. I get to go see allof these people. I'm going to see my grandparents. I get to see, , you know,just anybody that I love, anybody who was invited.

I get to go see him.

[01:14:37] Andrew Monroe: Wait at my dead then.

[01:14:38] Jonah Gray: No. It, you were, you were invitedto the, to the Memorial.

[01:14:42] Andrew Monroe: Oh, good. Well, and so I lovethe concept of, for anybody that's, I, I think it's great to think about deathbecause it kind of goes back to the personality thing. If people don'tacknowledge. I think it causes problems down the road, but for the sake ofpeople who maybe can't handle it emotionally, right now, I did my own littlevision thing through this other program.

And we won't get into that very much. But one of the prompts,whenever we were working on vision stuff was actually, you did this similar. ,technique where you described your like birthday or 90th birthday, and youabout, you know, who's the person who knew you the best and would give a speechat your birthday party and about the life that you had.

So it's a way to sidestep the fact that you're dead and belike, who's the important person who is at the. Party the birthday party foryou, like who are all the people in your life that have shown up? Do you havekids? , is that your kids talking is it's your wife or your husband talking,you know, what do they say about you?

What is your legacy look like? All that kind of stuff. It'sreally good to kind of get that focused. What do I look like at the end of theline? Like where, where does this path that I am walking, take me workbackwards on what people are going to say, because it does, you know, if you'rebeing an to people and that's kinda your thing and you spread it out, no one'sgoing to be at your birthday party when you're 90. one's going to be at yourfuneral. And so it's good to think about it. I liked that concept and liked thefuneral, like the birthday party, whatever it takes to get you. Reflecting onthe future, which is a weird thing to say out loud, reflecting on the future.

[01:16:11] Jonah Gray: um,

[01:16:11] Andrew Monroe: like it.

[01:16:11] Jonah Gray: Yeah, I kind of, I kind of frameit as, as what seeds are you planting

[01:16:15] Andrew Monroe: it.

[01:16:17] Jonah Gray: yeah. And, and so what, what areyou going to, so when you are older, are you going to, if you are plantingseeds of fear, you're gonna, you're gonna so regret. If you're planting seedsof love, you're gonna so gratitude. If you're planting seeds of joining, you'regonna sell that gratitude.

, so it is our, sorry. Ibelieve, I believe I'm using the wrong word reap,

[01:16:37] Andrew Monroe: okay, we'll go with it. We'llgo with

[01:16:39] Jonah Gray: we'll go or We'll go with it.Yeah,

yeah, yeah. But, , yeah, so it just kind of framing that, likewhat kind of fruit are you going to be harvesting at the end? You know, whatflowers do you get to smell? What are they weeds? Are they, you know, so it'sjust framing it in this way that, and you know, I've planted plenty of sourfruit in my life and.

That's why I've come to this space of, , attempting to prunethat back, attempting to, , de route those seeds and, you know, try again.

[01:17:10] Andrew Monroe: No. That's awesome, man. I likeit.

[01:17:19] Andrew Monroe: Well, I know you've listened tothe podcast before. So, you know, this last part is your challenge to thelisteners or friends that are participating in this conversation with us.

[01:17:28] Jonah Gray: Hm,

[01:17:29] Andrew Monroe: you're, know, if you have astory you want to share, so I'll open it up. If you've got a story of let'sjump into it, if not drop us a challenge and we'll close it out and let you,you know, keep on living.

[01:17:40] Jonah Gray: , okay, man. But there's just somuch to choose from. Can I get a prompt?

[01:17:45] Andrew Monroe: We have. Let's see. How about,, what was the time that.

We're afraid for your life.

[01:17:50] Jonah Gray: Okay. Yeah. , well, history of, asa rock climber, uh, , there's been plenty Of times where, where you're in asketchy situation and falling, but, , I'd say specifically the one that camefirst to mind, I used to run in the canyon on a regular basis. I'd go everyweek. And, , run different trails, , Palo Duro canyon, for those of you who arelistening.

, and on this particularday, I hadn't brought any, you know, anything with me. I didn't, I didn't bringmy music. I didn't bring, , a bunch of water that I normally bring and Idecided to just run as far as I could. And so I took a. Rock the rock gardentrail up to the, to the rim of the canyon. So you start at the bottom of thecanyon and you, you climb elevation until you're out.

And then I ran the rim and then I kept running the room and, ,the rock climber in me was like, oh, look at this crack, look at this, , thisthing that I could climb down into and. So I did, I got, I got back down intothe canyon and then, and then I was like, okay, well, I'm going to climb backup because there's not. really a, a trail to get back to my car.

, so I was just going togo back and, , I found this other crack because you know, being me, I have toexplore, I can't go the same way. , climbed down

and

[01:19:07] Andrew Monroe: not allowed.

[01:19:09] Jonah Gray: it just doesn't, it doesn'tcompute. So I'm climbing up into this other car that, , it's essentially thissh this, , slab of the canyon wall has fallen off of the canyon and it'sstanding upright a little, a little angled, a little, , tilted and I climb upin there and see.

Chiming my way up this chimney, this, these, these two slabs ofrock that are close enough together to climb up and I'm looking down and I'mlike, it's too late. If you, if you wanted to go back now, you couldn't, it'dbe more dangerous to do that than to keep going. And if you've ever been toPoudre canyon, everything is.

Like all of the rock is sand it's sandstone. So it's breaking,it's brittle. in running shoes, not climbing shoes. And my hands are justsliding down the stone, but wedged in between these two pieces and I'm theKenyan walls are pretty tall, so I'm like 40 feet up. And since one of thosewalls is tilted on. Getting further, like it's getting wider and wider andwider. And so I'm pretty spread Eagle and trying to get out of this hole. Andthere's a cactus at the very of, of this alleged. So it's like, I got a dot.Not only do I have to, you know, jump out of this hole at the very top, I haveto Dodge this cactus. So I'm, but I'm, I'm I keep looking down and I'm like,well, I mean, You've made it this far. Like no going back now. And, it wasweird. Like there was a moment where I thought like I could die. Like right nowI could die right now. I get slipped. This, this rock could giveaway. And I, I,nobody would find me for a while probably.

Um, cause I also didn't really tell anybody where I was going.Don't do that. People if you're listening, if you, if you go on a run. And thewilderness or state park or national park tell people where you're going. And,, I make it out just fine. You know, it's, it's really just all in all a headgame. And then, , potentially just an accidental rock breakage could havekilled me, but, you know, it's, , it's those moments like that where you are.

Close to, you know, anything could go wrong right now. Anythingcould go wrong and I could die that you're like, wow, I feel alive. feel aliveas hell right now. And it's, it's one of my favorite memories. It's not, it'snot as like epic and, and crazy as some, some other things that people haveexperienced as far as near death experiences.

And I've also almost died of a heat stroke out there. And thatwas probably scarier than, , this situation, but, you know, it's dangerous andalluring is, is the words that are used to describe it. You know, those, thosethings that make you feel alive, those things that, , really make you, , putyou up close and personal, , to your mortality.

So that's

[01:21:59] Andrew Monroe: completely agree, man. Iactually have almost the exact same story over in Utah, but we'll save that foranother time.

[01:22:06] Jonah Gray: Okay. All right.

[01:22:07] Andrew Monroe: Well, cool. Do you have achallenge for our guys and girls listening?

[01:22:10] Jonah Gray: Okay. Challenge. , go wander, gospend a day. , find, find somewhere where you don't get a service, you don'tget, you don't get cell phone service, you don't have internet. , you don'teven, , I got and take your phone just in case, , don't focus on food, bringwater and just spend a day wandering and see what happens. See what, see what amedicine. So that's what that's, that's my challenge.

[01:22:37] Andrew Monroe: That's awesome. I hope somepeople listen to that because I think it'd be pretty, pretty interesting forthem and me. I'll probably take you up on it. So

[01:22:44] Jonah Gray: Yeah. And take a picture, tag mein it. Shoot. Go

[01:22:47] Andrew Monroe: ha ha. Well, Jonah, thank youso much for coming on and sharing some of your wisdom and a story about yourtrip. And it was quite a cool experience that I had not heard of anybody elsedoing. So thank you so much for your time, man.

[01:22:59] Jonah Gray: Thanks for having me. It's

[01:23:00] Andrew Monroe: Of course, anytime to everybodyelse. Thank you for joining us as well.

Don't forget to check out skellies.com for some cool clothesfrom Jonah's group. And please check out the real thoughts podcast as well.Jonah does a great job over there, and I think you'd really enjoy it. Weappreciate you guys. And we look forward to connecting with you soon.