Manufacturing Engineer, Kevin Miller, Interview (#19)

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December 18, 2020

Manufacturing Engineer, Kevin Miller, Interview (#19)

Kevin is a manufacturing engineer at one of the larger corporations in America. Not only do we go a bit into how he achieved this, but we also cover loneliness, the environment, how to make friends and join organizations, and pursuing higher education. Plus, there's plenty of stories from our school days, including Andrew's friendship necklaces, Kevin's commitment to the dart game, and Daniel sabotaging the physics class. Most importantly though, we've decided that Minneapolis is pretty cool, and Raising Canes better hit us up soon with a coupon as our unofficial sponsor before we find us a new brand to sacrifice our bodies to. (Like the city of Minneapolis).

*Dead by Tomorrow may receive commission on links in these and other posts on the website*

Kevin is a manufacturing engineer at one of the larger corporations in America. Not only do we go a bit into how he achieved this, but we also cover loneliness, the environment, how to make friends and join organizations, and pursuing higher education. Plus, there's plenty of stories from our school days, including Andrew's friendship necklaces, Kevin's commitment to the dart game, and Daniel sabotaging the physics class. Most importantly though, we've decided that Minneapolis is pretty cool, and Raising Canes better hit us up soon with a coupon as our unofficial sponsor before we find us a new brand to sacrifice our bodies to. (Like the city of Minneapolis).

If you're looking to learn more about Kevin, want to pick his brain, or just want to follow him on socials,  on Instagram at @kevmillionaire, or on Facebook at Kevin Miller.

Show Notes:

Aquavit (Akvavit) & Tullibee:

FB: @tullibeemn

IG: @tullibeemn

This is the cool place in Minneapolis that had some phenomenal food and Akvavit, or at least back a few years ago. Highly recommend both visiting, and finding some Aquavit and sending it our way after you try it.

P.S. (Andrew here) Pretty sure this is where I first discovered duck fat fries. Holy carb lords were those golden tater wedges to die for. Give my regards to the chef, Tullibee.

Glam Doll Donuts:

FB: @GlamDollDonuts

IG: @glamdolldonuts

This is the donut shop we talked of briefly where Andrew had an impromptu photoshoot. Pro tip, any city will win over a Texan boy's heart by taking pictures of him eating donuts and saying he looks spiffy. Definitely drop by if you're running around looking for donuts in Minneapolis. Glam Dolls is top notch. #DonutLife


This is the Scandinavian delicacy that Kevin mentioned. If any of you guys see some of this gelatinous fish goop, holler at Andrew. He would like to try it.

Sierra Club:

"The Sierra Club is the most enduring and influential grassroots environmental organization in the United States. We amplify the power of our 3.8 million members and supporters to defend everyone’s right to a healthy world."

Meetup Orginization: events for all the things you love

Life Model Works Podcast

Here's the podcast Daniel talked about having listened to. Jim Wilder Ph.D. joins Stephen today to discuss the habits of RARE Mentors. The acronym comes from his book, Rare Leadership, and covers the importance of Remaining relational, Acting like yourself, Returning to joy, and Enduring hardship well.Check it out if you think it's something you're interested in!

Boat Race Pics:

If you wanted to see some 18-year-old version of Andrew, Daniel, and Kevin at the cardboard boat day mentioned in this episode, your wish is now a reality.

Sinking Boat

Episode Transcript

Andrew: [00:00:19] Hey guys, welcome back to dead by tomorrow. Today, we've got Kevin Miller on board. This is a little odd for at least Daniel and I not because we think Kevin's odd, which he actually probably is, but that's not the point. normally we don't do back-to-back interviews like this, but we're having a special kind of case.

So if you're listening chronologically, you get two interviews in a row. So Kevin is a manufacturing engineer. Uh, he went to UT and has been living up in Minneapolis ever since. So yeah, Kevin has been a childhood friend of mine since first grade. I'm pretty sure.

Kevin: [00:00:59] Yeah, that sounds about right.

Andrew: [00:01:00] yeah, you're one of the oldest friends. I have oldest acquaintances slash people. I know, besides my family. I don't know how to put that in proper phrasing, . So welcome on board, Kevin.

Kevin: [00:01:10] Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I have to be here.

All right. So Kevin, you've known Andrew since first grade we met. What was it? High school. Is that

Kevin: [00:01:26] Yeah, I think we did. was it world geography or something together?

Daniel: [00:01:29] And you have a better memory than I do. The main thing I remember is that we were part of, I'm just going to call it the lunch trust that formed around our friend, Jonathan, when, and it formed because he was one of the first people that could drive. Which is a very important skill to have to go off campus for lunches as sophomores.

And so, yeah, so we alternate between going to his house and your house and my house and your house. Honestly, I think it was the most popular because you had a ping pong table

Kevin: [00:01:56] yeah, no, we had, uh, definitely some fun during lunch.

Andrew: [00:02:00] That's cool. Rub it in guys. Cause I didn't get to go to that. I had a different lunch period than you guys freshman year,

Kevin: [00:02:04] no.

then we'd listen to some heavy metal in the car and yeah, it was a good time.

Daniel: [00:02:07] It's the best. And then you had to ruin it all by going to UT. So.

Kevin: [00:02:14] So unfortunate. yeah, no, I was really close there choosing between UT and a and M and, my brother was at UT and, I thought it would be an interesting place to go to after I visited him. I dunno, I really enjoyed my time at UT and I know you enjoyed your time at H and M and tech.

and so

Daniel: [00:02:30] Yeah. I was just going to say, I can at least say I enjoyed my time visiting you in Austin. that was a nice park. Having a friend at UT where it's like we could go. And I'm pretty sure you introduced me to Pluckers, which was really cool. And, Austin is a, it's a more fun city than college station.

I'll say it. I'll admit it.

Andrew: [00:02:48] Austin is great. I love Austin and I'm very happy that you went to UT because I feel. there's not a lot of us that didn't go to H and M there's almost a comradery and the fact that like 80% of the people that we graduated with that were in our little circle, all went to ANM.

It seems

Kevin: [00:03:05] Yeah, no Winston and I


Andrew: [00:03:07] I went to is we're going to try and get him on one of these days.

Kevin: [00:03:09] Oh, yeah, that'd be fun.

Andrew: [00:03:11] yeah, I haven't talked to him well, That's not true. I've actually talked to him. Semi-recently

Okay. Let's jump into this. Sorry. we're reminiscing here a little too much

so let's start with our casual intro questions. do you want to give us a little, what, uh, you know, I told everybody you're an engineer and you live in Minneapolis, but you want to run through your. Elevator pitch speech of what you do on a day to day and what Minneapolis is like and all that kind of jazz.

Kevin: [00:03:37] Yeah, sure. I'll start with my work. within my work, what I do is essentially I act as a project leader and, like the leader of cross-functional teams between marketing, supply chain and manufacturing, and I'll also, uh, go and run experiments in the lab. Whenever we have new processes where, We need to invent something.


Andrew: [00:03:57] That's cool.

Daniel: [00:03:58] Just casually, throw that in there.

Kevin: [00:04:00] I didn't want to sound like a Dick there, but yeah, it sounded way more like a flex.

we just had an experiment go really well at work, and that's what I'm thinking about. I don't know. It's fun. It's I did a bunch of internships, during our summers and, I kept finding jobs that I, didn't really enjoy until I moved up here.

And, I got this job has a summer intern and, I got to do a lot of hands-on work where, uh, you get to, really hard problems to solve. And, then they say, all right, how much money do you need to solve the problem? And, prove that, uh, you need to spend that money and then let's try and solve the problem.

And so it's, uh, allowed me to have a lot of creativity and a lot of hands-on work, which I am really missing in the out of the pandemic. Cause I've been working from home.

Andrew: [00:04:41] Yeah, that's

really cool, dude.

Daniel: [00:04:43] I'm curious. So do you really get to see sort of that process from beginning to end where you're getting to not only solve the problem, but justify, this is a problem that needs to be solved and it's worth this much money. I feel like that would almost be like three separate departments, but it sounds like you're getting to do all of that.

And one.

Kevin: [00:05:02] Yeah. the company I worked for is pretty, uh, I think unique in the U S at this point, in terms of letting you have that flexibility to go and explore all those roles. And it's it's very much hand you a problem, and doesn't, they don't tell you how to solve it. and they also don't you have a title like manufacturing engineer, but, They don't slap your hand. If you try and dabble in marketing, are you trying to dabble in supply chain? It's very much a what needs to get done? type thing. And so it's, it's rewarding. I definitely. Love my job. but yeah, you talked about just outside of my job too. I've really enjoyed moving up here to Minneapolis.

it's a fun city. I met my wife up here, and really getting to know Minnesota culture has been fun and, everybody just thinks Minnesota cold, but, that's. obviously that is true. I'm not going to lie about that, but, other than that, it's got, a lot of culture.

There's a live music. If you want to do that, there's breweries but honestly I just really enjoy the people. Like we joined a church up here and there's a, just a good sense of comradery within Minnesota. in terms of. Everybody's looking out for everybody. If somebody is a Honda side of the road, cause they spun out, then uh, somebody will stop and, try and help out.

And so it's, I've met a lot of good people up here I don't know that I'll, uh, I'll ever leave Minnesota.

Daniel: [00:06:17] That's that's awesome. Have you become a Vikings fan? that's my first question.

Andrew: [00:06:21] Kevin would never leave the 49ers. Don't even.

Kevin: [00:06:24] that is, that is true. And, no, I definitely have a second favorite team called the Vikings, but, no, my heart's always going to be with the 49ers.

Andrew: [00:06:30] Okay, good.

I would have, my world would have been turned upside down.

Kevin: [00:06:33] Yeah, that's a definitely, I don't know how I, attached myself to that team. But back whenever I, I was like seven or eight, I just chose

them and

I was like, I learned everything about them. Like back when there were newspapers, I would literally scan the entire sports section for the one sentence about the 49ers that was in the Amarillo, globe news. And even if it was just like, they signed a kicker and I was like, yes, I know a little bit more, I don't know.

it's an obsession.

Andrew: [00:07:01] Then the internet came and you're like, Oh, I'm not special

Kevin: [00:07:04] no. You're like you go onto these message boards and people are way more into it than you. And you're like, Oh, I thought I was a fan.

Andrew: [00:07:10] Dude. I feel that on so many different levels, there's all these things I love. And then I go deep into the internet and you're like, Oh, I'm dabbling in this book. Like, I kind of liked this book or this movie, like, and there's stuff that people catch or see. And I don't know about you guys. I feel like an idiot.

they'll point something out and I'm like, okay, cool.

I'm going

to go learn how to read. I totally missed that. It seems real obvious now.

Andrew (2): [00:07:40] I have something that you talked about that I want to get on my pedestal about real quick. So you said that you got this job because of your summer internship with the company.

Andrew: [00:07:50] and I don't know if this applied to you, Daniel, but. And it definitely didn't to me and I didn't get a cool job, but if you want a cool job for those people who are either looking at career changes or in school, still those summer internships are honestly key to getting in with some of the larger companies.

Like I used to think it was complete BS, but everyone I know that has a really interesting profession or working for a cool company. Intern their first, it was not the interview process. Post-college it was the chasing it while they were still in school doing a summer internship or two, and then they get offered a job when they apply out of school.

So if anybody's on the fence, I would highly recommend chasing summer internships.

Kevin: [00:08:30] Yeah, and I really did. and I can only speak to my experience. , it's definitely an easier path to getting into a job like mine and not to say that there aren't mid-career people that we pick up. there's a ton of paths to that job.

But, uh, I would say my experience was I loved getting to try a ton of different things. And, each summer that I went and worked at a job, I got a new experience and you get to see a new culture. That's another thing. Just like culture fit. I feel like it was huge thing in jobs. I worked at some companies during the summers where it was just a toxic culture.

everybody was there for themselves and you can't build anything real big just by yourself. you have to have, uh, a bunch of smart people in the room

Andrew: [00:09:13] I like it.

Daniel: [00:09:14] I agree. I didn't have the same experience with summer internships, but I guess it's more so I got to do summer internships and learned. This is not a company I want to ultimately end up that it was. Most of the time situations where they kind of ran out of things for me to do about a week or two in, because they didn't expect to have an intern that actually was excited about working.

And then the rest of the summer was me just bugging the people that had real jobs and trying to get something to do.

Kevin: [00:09:39] Yeah, no, that can definitely happen. And, yeah, you gotta prep so much for an intern. You're trying to get something done in like two months. And you're like, that's such a long time whenever you're in college, but then whenever you start working, you're like, Oh, all project timelines are longer than a year.

Andrew: [00:09:54] we'll do a month is like, Hey, let's, let's start this project and see where we're at in a month. And like, see if it's really worth putting effort into

Daniel: [00:10:01] Yeah, I agree. But I think something, you said, Kevin, that definitely resonates is the idea of just having a lot of smart people that you work with and that's. Been something that has stood out in my job, and a lot of ways really lucked out, to end up where I'm at. But one thing that really stood out the entire time is that they just hire really smart people.

So I'm surrounded by really smart people. And, whenever you do that, and you have people that are also really caring and empathetic, which is a huge part of what we try to hire for you end up. Having a good place to work as long as you're putting in the work and trying to make it into a good place to work.

So I think that's what has been important for me is just having the space to make the job into a good one. And I think good companies will find ways to do that with their smart people.

Andrew: [00:10:51] . So before we get too bogged down, do you have anything else on the, who is Kevin front?

Kevin: [00:10:56] Oh, I had some fun anecdotes Oh man. I enjoyed hammer Sundays.

Andrew: [00:11:00] Like you enjoyed them from afar or did I forget that you were there?

Kevin: [00:11:03] I was there at the, I don't know if you were calling them hammer Sundays back. Whenever we were like right after senior

Andrew: [00:11:09] Oh, Frisbee the Frisbee training. Yes.

Kevin: [00:11:13] a good summer.

Andrew: [00:11:14] about that.

Daniel: [00:11:15] I

honestly still can't remember it.

Andrew: [00:11:17] I don't know if you were coming in as much, Daniel.

Kevin: [00:11:19] It was like us, Julian,


Andrew: [00:11:22] Yeah.

cause I remember we were trying to run them at like 8:00 AM, on the weekdays in the summer.

And no one would show up until nine and we were like wanting to do like conditioning first we'd run three miles and do like a hammer Sunday kind of workout. And then we would try and play Frisbee at like nine, nine 30. And no one would show up until 10 for pickup. We're just like, screw you guys.

We've been here for two hours.

Daniel: [00:11:41] man. I would still do that.

Kevin: [00:11:42] All right. Yeah, those were the days.

Andrew: [00:11:44] That's one of those things I miss is those groups of people who are willing to do dumb things, meet up for workouts. Like in the large masses,

Kevin: [00:11:50] Oh

yeah. It's just so much more challenging. I feel like once, once everybody gets a real job

Daniel: [00:11:55] Yeah. time is at a premium. Whenever you've got that real job. So that's always the toughest thing. Thinking back to college, it's just, you had all the free time and it's just so easy to form relationships. Cause everybody had time for everything. even if you didn't really like somebody all that much, you're like, sure.

Yeah. I'll go to the gym with you or I'll do why not? I have nothing better to do so. As you, and this is something I experienced in a small degree, just moving to Dallas. But I would imagine for you moving to Minneapolis, which is whole nother state, and to my knowledge, you didn't bring any friends with you.

What was that like? Trying to form relationships as an adult where people do see time as a premium.

Kevin: [00:12:35] Oh, yeah, it definitely is a, it's a challenge. And, coming up to Minnesota, one good thing was, uh, with the internship, my previous summer. I had met quite a number of people that were moving back to Minnesota from all over the country. And so we formed a clique of people that work in my work.

But, I dunno, I just had to make myself real uncomfortable. I'm not an extremely extroverted person. Uh, I was joking with my wife. I'd probably just straddle that line between introvert and extrovert. and I forced myself, to go to I'm sure some people have heard of.

And so, it's an opportunity if you're a transplant or you want to make some new friends, there's just a bunch of different interest groups out there. And so there was, uh, a group that, was pretty popular and they had I dunno, 50 people coming to their events, that level of, popularity.

so you could go there and everybody would meet there. You'd see a bunch of people. And then you just, it wasn't quite speed dating in terms of friends, but, it was in that vibe of, just trying to meet people. and I met some really good people there and. you get to go out tubing. We tubed down the river.

Here we go out to the peanut bar and just, uh, trying to develop those relationships in that way. And it felt really forced for awhile, until, uh, eventually we just splintered off from the meetup group and, some of my best friends came from that

Daniel: [00:13:56] So with the groups, it, would it be a situation where it's like, we're just going to meet up at a bar and hang out, or was there any central interest around it?

Kevin: [00:14:04] This was called twenties and thirties. I forget something,

like twin cities. Except you could tell, like, I don't know the group, I was part of, it was, we're a bunch of mega nerds. and so there's a bunch of ultimate Frisbee. There was paint ball or there is a. Yeah. Sometimes we would just go to bar for karaoke or swing dancing.

there was no real rhyme or reason to like one central hobby.

It was show up and, uh, yeah.

Andrew: [00:14:37] Oh yeah, Minneapolis, by the way. It's not cold all the time. I was there like February. Right? That was when you got married.

Kevin: [00:14:42] Yeah,


snowed the

weekend before, but,

Andrew: [00:14:45] but it was chill as hell. it was like the weather was great.

Like I walked around downtown for like four hours and I just bar hopped and restaurant hopped and donut hopped someone that I was an Instagram model. Uh, cause I was

Kevin: [00:14:56] not your only time, Andrew.

Andrew: [00:14:58] it was my favorite part about Minneapolis was I walked out of this pinup donut stop. I can't remember what it was called, but they had great donuts and.

I was dressed for your wedding and some girl who was also like some Instagram influencer, something or another did like a travel blog. And she's like, Oh my goodness, are you a food blocker? And I was like, no, and she's like, you look so great. Can I get a picture of you? And she took my picture with the donuts and her and her husband were all excited.

And I did a little photo shoot with my donuts and I never saw the pictures and I was really sad, but. Sorry, that was not the point. there was a Scandinavian bar there. Do you know which one I'm talking about? it was super Viking esque with like kind of upscale food, but they had this, Aqua Veit

Kevin: [00:15:38] No, I don't, I don't know if I know what you're talking about. Like it's a big part of, uh, Minnesota culture is just, there's a lot of people that moved here from the Nordic countries. And so there's a, there's some interesting traditions you find like, there's this. There's some real disgusting food called lutefisk.

and it's just I'm not even going to describe this. Right. I want to say like warm fish. and

Andrew: [00:16:03] We'll throw that in the show notes.

Kevin: [00:16:04] Yeah. Throw it in the show notes. Dried Whitefish made from aged stock fish.

Andrew: [00:16:09] I was about to say, there's gotta be some fermentation in there.

Kevin: [00:16:11] Oh, yeah, there is. Um, and so I've never tried it personally, but, yeah, definitely some good culture up here.

And, uh, more recently, like there's the smaller immigrants that have, uh, moved up here to Minneapolis and have added their own, interesting food and culture and yeah. So one more reason to love Minneapolis.

Andrew: [00:16:29] Very cool. We'll, uh, we'll holler at the city and tell them that we're doing a travel promotion for them, and we expect them to sponsor our podcast and they will be our first and only sponsor when they accept to. Our demands.

So you watch yourself Minneapolis.

Daniel: [00:16:43] wait,

we were working with canes for a little while there weren't we?

Andrew: [00:16:46] Yeah. We've got to go hold them up. I mean, request


Okay. Canes and Minneapolis as a whole, they can split the podcast. We want

Kevin: [00:16:57] Or just like a free coupon.

Daniel: [00:16:59] I would take it. W is Cain's a thing is fried chicken, a thing up in the North.

Kevin: [00:17:02] Kane specifically as a thing. So whenever I came up to intern, like that was one of our favorite places to go is right next to the U of M campus.

Daniel: [00:17:10] All right. Good.

that means that it's still it's possible. You know, we could move there someday.

Andrew: [00:17:15] I feel like we need to send this to a bunch of northerners. So they'd be like, what the hell do these South Texan guys, things going on up here.

It's not a different country.

Yeah. Y'all have fried chicken up there.

Oh man. I hate myself.

let's rewind a little bit,

Kevin: [00:17:40] Oh,


I had to ask my wife this this morning.

Oh, yeah, I did. Cause I knew this was an important, uh, to some and uh, I think

I'm a one. Yeah. And so I'm a one for whatever that means. My wife recently, she described me as steady. and so that's two levels above boring, according to her. I think that describes him personality steady.

Andrew: [00:18:05] All right. In the sweet spot. So you're a one. Did she tell you your wing?

Kevin: [00:18:08] Oh no,

I didn't prep that well for this

Daniel: [00:18:11] No,

that's fair. I, I really only know my own wing information, I can quickly Google in any Agram one. And remember what it is. If I have to go into the wings, that's too much work for me. So I'm good with just no.

Andrew: [00:18:22] Maybe we can take the test, pretend to be Kevin after this and we'll

just make it up for them. I'm just going to go with whatever it's to the left. Does it end at nine?


I'm going to say

wing nine

Daniel: [00:18:32] all right. we'll have to find out what one is The perfectionist is like a little bit more of

Andrew: [00:18:40] Oh yeah, that fits too. I remember doing some, uh, science projects with Kevin.

Daniel: [00:18:46] so I'm still, I am still bitter about our boat project

in was that physics to where we, we built a legitimate boat

that was out of cardboard. It was awesome. We made a really good one. And then the winner was just this kind of like. Terrible boat that was just covered in duct tape. it was just duct tape.


all it was.

Andrew: [00:19:08] I had one with Tim because for whatever reason I was with Tim on that. And I think Lauren Carnes, um, and we don't think we ever saw Lauren if I remember. Right. Uh, or maybe she, I can't remember, but yeah, it was just him and I, and neither of us are the overachieving architects.

And I think our boat made it about 10 feet.

Daniel: [00:19:24] sinking still somewhere.

Andrew: [00:19:28] I remember that with the red duct tape and everything, it's just, we didn't even, we essentially got far enough out. That was like, you kicked off the wall and then the boat just kind of

coast on momentum as a sank.

I think you guys made it all the way didn't you, or y'all made it all the way down.

Y'all didn't make it back.

Daniel: [00:19:43] I think that's right. We did the second best after the boat, that was just floating duct tape.

Andrew: [00:19:49] The canoe duct tape. Man high school was weird, for those listening that's like, these guys are really going off on some weird tangents. We were all in the, uh, the physics two class, our senior year, which I'm not sure what the technical term was. for Andrew, it was a class he shouldn't have been in. I played a lot of spades, but also no one else should have been in it either because I don't think we were taught very well, no offense to Emerald high in general, I think.

One person actually took the AP test and got points off.

Daniel: [00:20:15] I took the test. I don't know if I got points, but I remember the, the teacher, whenever she found out that I was taking it, she asked me why. And she said that she wasn't even sure if she could pass it.

Andrew: [00:20:25] I sure you did your best effort, but I'm almost positive that only Leanne actually scored any points for the, like pass the test and scored points for the AP. I don't think anyone else in our entire grade, because I remember thinking like, Oh, it's not just me that struggling in this class with like,

Kevin: [00:20:42] Oh, yeah. I had to take tutoring and college that to catch up.

Andrew: [00:20:46] In this class, we had a boat contest and at the very end of the year, they took us to a pool and we had two months or something to build a cardboard boat, to swim across the swimming pool. And it was this big contest. And this day we were all very excited about and, uh,

Daniel: [00:21:01] so wait, Kevin, which physics of the year one engineering physics was the hardest for you.

Kevin: [00:21:06] so I took, um, my second semester, the most exciting class name ever statics, literally your entire job is to show why this thing doesn't move. so I blame a lot of this on the professor who could not draw that well.

and so many engineering professors just draw stuff and then they assume that they're horribly drawn picture. You perfectly understand what the situation is and I did not. and and then yeah, due to our great physics background, I. Did not understand what torque was. and so it did not go well for the first half that class.

So humbling moment for me. first time I ever went to tutoring and I will say go get help if you need help in college. yeah,

Daniel: [00:21:54] completely. I, for me, it was the reason I ask is I did engineering for a year, so I had some physics classes and the one that destroyed me was electricity and magnetism. I just couldn't wrap my head around it.

Kevin: [00:22:06] Oh yeah, that one was too bad too. I didn't take that till sophomore year. it, definitely the concepts are weird and, I don't know. They're harder to demonstrate than, uh, like a lot of the. push your car, make it go type stuff.

Andrew: [00:22:26] one of the things we talked about. Before you came on. Cause we've been trying to talk about getting you on for a couple months now. And Daniel decided to go have a kid and we decided to publish a book and things happen. So one of the things you mentioned was loneliness and that's huge for me because Amarillo has been on and off very lonely at different points.

And there's been ups, but there's been some really big downs for me. So. I don't know if that's kind of where you're going, because I know you're married. So is it a loneliness, even though you're married or was this a pre-marriage thing or what are your thoughts there that you wanted to talk about?

Kevin: [00:23:02] I don't know. There's just a, I think it's an interesting topic to talk about and something that like, Guys don't talk about that much. but there were some moments in my life where I was in a new situation, where I hadn't built up that group of friends and, uh, as somebody that tends a little bit introverted, I found it really challenging to get outside my shell.

And, I just, I think I've learned a little bit as I've gone, In terms of how to get out of some of those ruts, but it's definitely just challenging. and I found for myself that like joining organizations really helps. and I know there's some people like my wife that, you could, she'll go kicking and screaming and this any sort of organized, Way to meet friends, but, it's really helped me.

I have some examples from college where I walked into a room for a rocket club and knew no one. but just putting yourself in that situation and, just starting a couple of conversations and then the nice thing as an introvert with organizations like. Yeah. Usually I have a project that you're forced to talk to other people about.

and so you can avoid all awkward small talk if you'd like to until later on. And so it's a, I dunno, it's a strategy that's worked for me a few different times and it also, I feel like it's pretty rewarding. there's the time that I joined the rocket club and I got to learn how to build, It started out as a foot-long rocket from scratch.

And then we built like a 10 foot two-stage rocket and that one didn't work so well, but we had a lot of fun learning how to, build hands on like that. And then recently, while I was up here in Minneapolis, uh, one of my coworkers was involved in a boy scout troop, and I grew up in Scouts. And so I was pretty comfortable in that environment.

And, it turned out to be a really, interesting. Way to, uh, to help out the community and, also just meet people. I met a number of like people that are our parents' age, to be honest. and it's more interesting because they have a completely different outlook on life. and I don't know, organizations allowed me to go outside my comfort zone.

Daniel: [00:25:09] and something you said that I think is important with organizations that can help in those moments where it's, you know, it's frankly uncomfortable. I mean, I, I consider myself fairly extroverted, but I still going into. Two situations knowing no one, I'm not somebody that's gonna all the time, just come up and talk your ear off.

But with an organization, like you said, you've got a, project or something that you're working on. Or a lot of times you're at least going into something where there's that shared interest. And so that can just bring a level of comfort, knowing there's a safe subject to talk about, or we're going to do an activity that I enjoy, or I'm at least good at that's where sports have always been good for me, like playing a ultimate Frisbee or playing volleyball.

If the conversation dies, we can just keep playing the sport. Or I can ask you questions about the sport and know that. We're going to at least have somewhat of a starting point, and then you can dive in a little bit more and figure out, okay, where are there more commonalities? And, know, as you were talking about your meetup things, where there are 50 people and a lot of it's awkward at first, I'm sure as you found those friends that you kind of splintered and had your small groups with it was because you realize, okay, there's more commonalities here.

More things we can talk about, we can build a dynamic, or at least they were, fun people to be around.

Andrew: [00:26:22] What I really like about what y'all are talking there, kind of gives this, joining an organization, joining this group project. Like these activities, give you a framework first off, even if you're an extrovert like Daniel or I, or at least in our friend's eyes were these crazy extroverts, but it doesn't matter because every single person, when you're meeting someone new.

you're nervous. You're nervous that this person is not gonna like you. And you're nervous that there and who knows what we're really thinking is going through our head, but it's not, it's not rational, but nobody actually is comfortable completely with meeting new people. And then that framework gives you space to get past that awkwardness.

And then on top of that, you have this ability to do something. More than one time. I don't know about you guys, but for me, post-college even like a few years after college, I guess there was a lot of struggle in me trying to develop new friendships because you don't have that easy pattern with them.

And so having that framework to work off of gives you the space and the time to develop a rapport with somebody that used to be a lot more instantaneous when we were younger and had whatever it was. like that childhood wonder where it's you're a new person and we're now best friends.

This is great. Like, we don't have that anymore. At least I don't. And it, takes a lot longer for me to be comfortable and truly cherish like a relationship or a friendship with somebody than it used to. So having that framework with a group project is I think key to actually getting to know somebody send me like, Oh, we just didn't, we didn't click.

So like, I'm never talking to him.

Kevin: [00:27:52] yeah, no, it's

Andrew: [00:27:56] something on the loneliness front, because, and why I was so intrigued by this. Did you know that they're actually putting the numbers out there? That loneliness is one of the leading factors in why men die earlier than women?

and for context, we were talking about this loneliness thing at the beginning of December, and I'm doing this little like self-improvement program because I'm a weird guy that loves that kind of stuff. And one of this month, Like goal was connection. They give you this booklet at the beginning of the month and they say, Hey, this is why this connection mindset is so important this month.

So this is why for December, you're going to be working on connecting with people. And it was right after we'd set the date for this and I get this booklet in and I'm reading through it and it's talking about loneliness and just how. Awful. It is on guys and it causes us to die early. it causes all these mental health issues, like a big chunk of adult male problems come from us, not having deep friendships and connections with other men.

And I was just blown away by it. So I took some pictures that I was actually meant to send you. And then again, things got wild. And so I'll probably throw them in the show notes, but it's crazy, like how.

Kevin: [00:29:10] Yeah, I'd say guys, at least in my experience, we just don't keep up as well as, for example, I see my wife she is always chatting with her friends from different stages of her life and, I still check in every now and then with y'all, but, I don't share day-to-day details.

and I, I don't really want that either. I would rather see people day to day and I get involved in people that I see as lives.

Andrew: [00:29:38] No I'm with you. Like if I'm not involved in something or have some, you know, like Daniel, I play video games with. A group of guys on Monday nights. And like, I keep up pretty regularly with them because it kind of revolves around that activity.

Kevin: [00:29:53] Yeah.

Andrew: [00:29:53] yeah, it's that rhythm.

That's a good word for it, but where I have other really good friends like you and Minneapolis, I've got a great friend in Portland. I've got great friends down in Austin and I have great friends in Lubbock and Dallas that I. every six to nine months I might be like, Hey, I just want to make sure you're not dead.

And then they forget to respond. And it's like a year later, they're like, Oh, Hey, sorry. I saw this. And like, you know, I'm doing my thing. And like, you're not on the top of my mind and I forgot to respond. Then I forget to follow up with them because they're also not on my mind, but it's also how I want it.

Like keeping up with that many different people would be difficult on a day-to-day basis. that's a lot of time.

I think that's why like, things like a weekly game night or like the D and D and my case, because that was a really big thing for me or the league and that kind of stuff. Like having that meetup, or even a, that same book I was talking about, they have a quarterly or yearly guys trip.

the guy who was involved with it as the founder of Toms, and he meets up with this group of guys, every year and they. Do these guy trips and it, that was one of their things like this is just so fulfilling, so

Daniel: [00:30:57] and I bet that, if you look at guys, I'm sure even through a lot of stages of life, guys are social. we talk to coworkers about work. We talk to friends about sports and all this sort of stuff. And. I think a differentiator, if we're just talking stereotypically, between men and women is guys relationships, I think have a tendency to be a little bit more shallow.

And so that's where I was listening to a podcast that was, a man just talking about how. He at times just felt like I just want to strangle my kids. It's so hard being a dad, but he didn't have any guys in his life that he could talk to about how hard it was to be a dad. He was like, if I said that to, you know, any of my guy friends, they'd be like, what's wrong with you?

Why are you saying that? versus, he would just see like his wife would be involved in like the new moms club and they would just come together and talk about all of those challenges. And so to me, That's what can contribute to loneliness. Like you can be lonely, even if you're surrounded by people, it's feeling like you can open up, you can be vulnerable, you can ask questions.

And that's something that fortunately, I, feel like is trending more towards guys feeling like that's okay, that's accepted, that's needed. But historically I don't think that's been as much the case.

Andrew: [00:32:13] I've got to play a little devil's advocate. I'm not sure if that's the right term for this, but since our audience is split like 50, 50 female male, this also applies to girls. generally girls are a lot better at this, but I know a lot of girls who are. Aren't like this, they just don't have those relationships with other girls.

So if you're hearing this and you're like, well, that sounds like a guy problem. And like, if you go check your phone and you're not doing like Kevin's wife is Lily, right. That's her name?

Yeah. If you're not doing like what Lily's doing, you're keeping up with your friends and it's been three weeks or four weeks since you talked to your best friend, shoot that girl a text and be like, what's up, tell them about your life and like get in on this with us.

Because just because it affects guys doesn't mean it doesn't also affect girls.

Kevin: [00:32:52] Getting back to I don't know, maybe there's just like a personality divide where you're not as good at, Keeping up. So having a scheduled, times to connect, like y'all have, with your

Andrew: [00:33:08] Percent hundred and 10% scheduling is life. Dude, if you don't schedule social stuff like that, it's just not going to happen. no one actively takes their free time and says, Hey, I'm going to try and get people to do this thing with me. Like we're all adults at this point. No one wants to be surprised with a social outing.

Kevin: [00:33:26] Yeah, that was a big change from college, I think is just there was more that, spur of the

moment type stuff. And it's just, there's so many other challenges now that,

Andrew: [00:33:38] I'll do I get annoyed? If someone's Hey, you want to do this thing tonight? I'm like, it's today. I don't do things the same day anymore. Like you got to give me at least two days notice

Daniel: [00:33:46] See, I still get excited about it. I have a friend who's notorious for this temp. Like he will just shoot out the most ridiculous, like you just want to drive up and like go fish this weekend. I have to tell him no half the time because life is busy, but. I love when I get a text from Tim, I feel like, all right, there's a chance now that I get to do something fun today that I wasn't expecting.

but you gotta like make yourself available for that. And it's hard to do as an adult. Going back to something you said a lot earlier, Andrew is, with structure and organization, you know that you're going to see somebody again. I feel like that's one of the bigger challenges too, is if you kind of hit it off with somebody in school, you're going to see them in class.

at least a few more times a week regularly. so you can continue for that to happen. Versus if it's like a one-off situation, you've got to be intentional about chasing that person down and actually having interactions again, like it's not scheduled into your day for you.

Andrew: [00:34:40] Yeah, don't be afraid of jumping in on that.

Daniel: [00:34:43] The


intentionality is important.

Andrew: [00:34:46] No, that's that's fair. I like it. It's hard to be spontaneous with it, but it also has its place. So it gives you a little bit of spice, especially the less you do it also tells him next time you see him. I miss him and I miss his dog

because I do know, I don't think I've ever known it. I just played with it at a Christmas party and loved on it. And then I think I saw it again. Ah, coffee, maybe

Daniel: [00:35:08] All right.

It's hard. It is. Yeah. I feel like it's tough to say you miss something. If you can't name it though. That's maybe you

just missed dogs.

Andrew: [00:35:21] I that it's common, man. It is coming anyways, all right, Kevin, let's go back to you. Otherwise, this is just going to be another one of those things where we're just hanging out and nobody wants to listen to it.

Daniel: [00:35:39] I did read a, like a quick little thing today. breaking down a Biden selection for climate. They called it climate changes. Are, is that actually the term

Kevin: [00:35:50] I think that's a


Daniel: [00:35:51] it really

Kevin: [00:35:53] real czars. Aren't just

in Russia anymore.

Andrew: [00:35:55] what

are you serious?

Kevin: [00:35:57] There's like a policy czars.

Andrew: [00:35:59] No, I'll go in for politics. So I'm going to claim that it's totally fair if that's a real thing and it's totally unfair if you're joking with me, cause I'd have no idea.

Kevin: [00:36:11] let's see here back since 1933,

Andrew: [00:36:15] I wasn't born in 1933, whatever you said, 1933.

Kevin: [00:36:21] Yeah.

Do you have this Joe Rogan style, like Google in it?

Andrew: [00:36:25] I dig it is that, so this is our thing that to either of you, is that like there's only one czar of a certain policy or does like. There's like a captain, which is actually is, are in like all the different departments

Kevin: [00:36:39] my pay

Daniel: [00:36:40] I don't know. I just read about the climate changes are today and I assumed that the source was just using it as a fun moniker and that it wasn't a real time.

Yeah, but yeah. So any thoughts on the appointment and just the direction that it seems like we're going to be moving now with climate change? I know Joe Biden's like saying 2050, we're going to

Kevin: [00:37:04] Yeah, I don't like to get too tied up in like the federal level stuff, just cause, uh, it's so much out of our control. it's definitely big structural changes need to happen, but, I think it's a lot more fulfilling to think about what you can do in your own backyard. and so I joined up with, the Sierra club here in Minneapolis.

It's just a local, I don't know how to describe the Sierra club, essentially we're trying to figure out, alright, what are ways that Minnesota, particularly, and our city in particular could make steps towards a more sustainable future. so they have some ideas on how to lobby this local state legislature, for example, we're gonna see if, uh, we can change Xcel energies. investment plan in terms of, they want to make a big investment in a natural gas plant here. And so the argument is that a lot of that could be done with a solar or renewable plus energy storage. so just trying to make those small changes like that.

there's a Minnesota electric vehicle group that I'm a part of. That's really just trying to educate people about, What type of electric vehicle would work for their lives? Tesla is obviously a very famous one, but more and more, manufacturers are coming out with electric vehicles that are more and more affordable.

And also some are coming on the used market. which again, I don't know about y'all, I've never bought a new car. and so as electric vehicles become used, they become a lot more affordable, a lot more. Available. And so, trying to get people comfortable with that is, I think a lot,

Andrew: [00:38:37] I bet that's a tough conversation. The Tesla gets the fame because their electric cars work like a regular car, but better like a lot of these other electric cars, especially on a used market. I bet it's difficult to be like, Hey, you might not get that like speed and everything, but like, you should totally consider the lesser

Kevin: [00:38:56] Yep. I drive a Honda accord, I don't have a ton of pride in my vehicle. and so it's a matter of lifestyle there, but, my point is just like there's more and more vehicles coming on. Especially in the next couple of years that, are going to be more and more affordable.

and Tesla kinda my in-laws in particular, they joke that a it's like a status symbol. it's, unapproachable in that way, but, if you can just get people to. The see other examples, like I, I rented a Chevy bolt, during one of my trips, just to get an experience with that. And, uh, it's got like 200 miles of range, which is plenty for me.

so, yeah, there's a, that's how I like to approach climate change is just what are taking a look at your own climate footprint? What are ways that, you could, Change your life and there's different ways to do that. You don't have to buy a new car. there's all sorts of ways to save energy, the reduce, reuse, recycle and so there's that. And then there's also, I don't know, I'm reading with my mom, the Pope just wrote an encyclical on, on climate change so there's. A bunch of ways to approach it and just think intentionally about we want to leave it for our kids.

Daniel: [00:40:04] Yeah.

and I think what you're talking about is such a more practical way to approach really big problems like climate changes, look and see what your circle of influence is, what your footprint is. It doesn't mean that you. Never pay attention to anything beyond you, but the whole idea of the circle of influences, where you direct your energy and attention are on the things that you have the most influence on.

And as you get further and further out, you direct less energy and attention. And so I guess I'm curious, you know, you mentioned reduce, reuse, recycle, but are there any other things that you do or tips that, you would share as far as,

Kevin: [00:40:46] I got a little thing that you can plug into the wall and learn how much electricity each thing is using in your house. and so that will, uh, You'll find some surprising things I bet. in terms of what your

biggest, so my dryer is a huge, part of that.

So hanging your clothes out to dry rather than using a dryer, can definitely help. And, I don't know. There's just, one of the people that I like listening to his big thing is every time you replace, Like anything in your house or, there's some renters out there that have less ability to do that, but, just think about what's the cleanest way you could do it.

and so there's more and more electric heaters for certain parts of the country that can, uh, reduce that. And, uh, that cleanest way, to get around transportation wise is a bicycle. And so definitely, uh, I admire everyone that does that. I definitely should do that more. and so just, I think it, as a first step, I liked the idea of just going, I've got a website that I really like that breaks out.

All right. What are all the different ways that, your carbon footprint adds up? And one of my biggest one is flights. living up in Minnesota, I go down and fly to see my family all the time. And we also like going internationally. until the time comes that, we have a more renewable, airplane, from a carbon footprint standpoint, Definitely cutting down on your, your flights is one of the biggest things.

And so even if you just, if I drove to Texas, rather than flying to Texas, it's a huge impact. and so just thinking about that and not beating yourself up too much about it. but thinking about it and also eating, meat is definitely a big part of, your carbon footprint I love steak, man.

I love steak. and I don't think I'll probably ever give it up completely, but, uh, it's uh, it's the number of times you eat it per year, right? It's not that you eat it, at least from a carbon footprint standpoint. And so if you can, uh, reduce that then, uh,

Andrew: [00:42:46] That's going to be a tough sell, but I see where you're coming from.

I had something that I've been holding back to ask you on because I am partly embarrassed. I didn't know. And I'm also incredibly curious. You said you just finished your master's


When did this happen? What did you get it in? What was it like? How all the details and was this one of the things like you, I'm going to combine it with a little extra, just in case you can juggle a lot of things in your head.

Was this like something that started as a hobby or were you pursuing other hobbies and also pursuing your master's because you've been working full time or. was this a separate goal? How did this fit with your outside of work life? And did it disrupt your outside of work life to a huge extent, or what was the skinny here?

Kevin: [00:43:41] So this was something that, I enjoy school. That's a very nerdy thing to say. but, I did well in school whenever I was in college. And, uh, it was something that, I don't know, there was a lot of topics that interested me, outside of my major as well. And With that I went and got a full-time job, but, I started talking to my boss about, I knew that he had gone back and gotten his master's at a local university here.

and I started talking with him about, development goals and ways to expand my knowledge base so that I could, Work on more interesting projects. and so after talking with him, some, I learned that, my work actually, sponsored people to go back and take classes while you're working. and so I did not think that I, get that approved, but, I did get it approved.

And so I was fortunate enough to have them pay for a decent chunk of it. And the other thing you talked about just life disruption. I went to a school that, very much catered to, people that were working, while going to school. And so I took one or two classes each semester.

And so it wasn't real fast paced. And I would go basically three hours, uh, one night, a week per class. And then there is, some homework outside as well. And so. chipping away like that. and the reason I went back though, was, uh, so I majored in mechanical engineering in, undergrad and more and more, I, I learned about, mechanical engineering and the more and more I wanted to be an electrical engineer.

I took a lot of classes that were between those two in my undergrad, but I felt like I still wanted to know more, after that. And, I talked to my advisor at school and said, can I switch majors like that in my master's? And they said, yeah, you can, you can do it. take some background classes.

And so I, did that and it's been a, it's been a journey. I think I've been. Go into school for about five years at this point.

And so fluent study. but, yeah, it allowed me to just explore a lot of different topics. even some that weren't real, work-related, learning a decent amount about how, Power is generated and transmitted, was really interesting to me and learning the challenges that we have in terms of, coming up with, a green electrical grid.

there's, uh, a nuanced approach to take as, as we transition there. but it helped me get a full understanding. I think of the problem. and. Yeah, it's been a super rewarding process. I encourage people to do it at your own pace. And, uh,

Andrew: [00:46:11] So five years you got your master's in electrical engineering or was it just like an engineering? Master's

Dang. And the work helped pay for a chunk of it. Was it still expensive outside of what your work was paying for?

Kevin: [00:46:25] It was not the cheapest university for sure. it was significantly more expensive than, uh, the state school that I went to for undergrad.


just on a tuition basis, like if I was paying tuition at my undergrad and tuition at the school, it, Yeah

Andrew: [00:46:40] Cool. I appreciate you sharing. That's really cool. I had no idea you were working on it. I like it.

Daniel: [00:46:52] Going back. This all goes back to that, physics two class, which side note I have this in my mind.

Tell me if this is true. Did you ever actually teach the class? Kevin?

Kevin: [00:47:04] I feel like I did one day,

She was just done with the students that day. And she was like, I don't know, Kevin, you got a decent handle on this problem. and we didn't have a textbook or anything in that class.

So like, everything was just like,

Daniel: [00:47:23] Yeah, that was that's one of my memories. I was pretty sure you taught it. I also remembered one time she rolled in the video, the

TV, which that was the thing she rolled in the TV to play a video for us. Cause that was going to be our class for the day. And. I think it was me. I don't know. Maybe I had held maybe it was Andrew.

Kevin: [00:47:42]

I, it definitely was blamed on Andrew as well. Yeah.

Daniel: [00:47:45] Two perfect two. Perfect. okay. It's confirmed. It was me. Good. I fast forwarded the video to about five ish minutes before it was over


And, uh, yeah. And so the video ended super early and she just made a comment of, huh? I guess that video was shorter than I thought. I guess y'all can just do whatever you want. So yeah, we played spades, And then the next day we come in and she's like, I'm going to give you a test over the video. we were like, Oh, this, this is not good. And the test just had one question on as who, fast forward to the video while I was out of the class, she gave it to the whole class. And so like, as soon as I saw it, I remember this now that's all coming back to me. I just got up and went back and I told her

Kevin: [00:48:33] Yeah. It was like, you just,

Daniel: [00:48:35] Yup. And she really wasn't that mad, like to her credit. I, I didn't get in super

big trouble, but.

w she was killing time anyway, but I was impressed because everybody made a point to come and say, Hey, I, I didn't put your name on that. Like,

that it was great watching the whole thing.

but the, okay, so the last thing about that class, and then we can move on and talk about better things in life. I also remember. Playing the dark game. Do you remember playing the dark game, Kevin for the viewers that don't know? Can,

can you, yes. Yes you, can you describe what the dark game entailed?

Kevin: [00:49:18] Yeah. So, uh, it was whenever Tom and I stored there deeply into each other's eyes. And then, basically I mind that I shot a dart at him and he would fall wherever he was. And, we played with everyone else too, but

Daniel: [00:49:34] Absolutely.

Oh, yeah, everybody played, but

Kevin really played because I

remember one time and it got banned in our class because, you know, you would get darted in the middle of a class and you'd fall on your desk or,

Andrew: [00:49:50] someone to have to pull the dart out of your neck, right? Like you couldn't move until someone unguarded you.

Daniel: [00:49:55] Exactly.

And so 90%, 99% of us just you're like, it's not worth it. We're not playing, but we knew Kevin. We knew that you would still play

Kevin: [00:50:06] Dedicate myself to everything in life. And so even, even that, and I remember why it got banned. Y'all remember the exact moment I got banned.

not quite, I think for some reason we had a physics demonstration where I had to stand on a table like I forget what contrived reason we had for that. but Ms. Venture was like, Kevin, stand on a table and TA. Grabbed my attention by saying my name. And, you quickly darted me and I fell off the table and not in a dangerous way.

but, uh, she was not a fan of that. and, uh,

Daniel: [00:50:43] But you continued. Cause I remembered you still got darted and fell out on the floor one time. And she was so angry because she had banned the game, but you continued to play, but you were the star student. So there was like, there was nothing she could do.

Andrew: [00:50:56] So I didn't sleep much my freshman year of college. So honestly, my memory of the like last two years of high school has like weird gaps in it, but. I only remember three classes and maybe I only took three classes, but I remember Robert Socratic seminar, that physics two class and the calculus two class.

And I didn't do anything in those latter two classes. but the physics was wild. I remember calculus was really boring and it was just tall and I screwing around, but physics was a good class. It was wild. We all even talked about Robert's class. Cause that was a whole different can of worms that I loved.

Kevin: [00:51:29] for protesting the Texas pledge of allegiance.

Andrew: [00:51:33] No.

Kevin: [00:51:34] Oh man.

Uh, apparently. Yeah. And so there was a, clearly this was coming. but, I just thought it was, I learned if you've never lived outside of Texas, this may come as a shock, most high school students do not pledge allegiance to their state. it's a, just a Texas thing.

and yeah, and so I learned that, and then I was like, I wouldn't die for Texas.

I'd be like, Oh, come on. And so I, raised my fist in a protest and Mrs. Miller did not like that whatsoever. I don't know.

Andrew: [00:52:11] out.

Kevin: [00:52:12] It's

she just about kicked me out of class.

No, I haven't. I'm sure both of y'all have

Andrew: [00:52:21] Okay. That's a little judgmental,

Kevin: [00:52:25] though.

Andrew: [00:52:27]

but not kind. What about you? You have any memories for Daniel and I have things that we might've forgotten or suppressed

any good stories.

Kevin: [00:52:37] I dunno, just playing Frisbee. and whenever you and Daniel would be captains, like y'all would take completely different strategies. Andrew was just chaotic, and his picking strategy. I feel like you, you really wanted to build a ragtag team of like you remember the movie, the little giants.


Andrew: [00:52:55] Yeah,

no. So there's actually rhyme to my madness reason to my madness, rhyme and reason. I'm really good with words. I swear. I would pick the person I wanted to like, if we're picking like, all right, there's so-and-so, they're going to be great. least likely person to be picked because I didn't want them to feel left out.

Daniel: [00:53:17] Wow.

That's a very,

that's very nice.

I just picked the best player available

Andrew: [00:53:22] I, no,

no, I, I did a back and forth, If you're ever like second, fourth, it means you, I thought that Daniel would never pick you.

Daniel: [00:53:32] And you probably right. I did get temporarily shunned from the group from, for being too competitive for taking it too seriously, but jokes on them. I've, jokes on me.

Kevin: [00:53:44] movie with will Ferrell. Semi-pro I feel like that's the level you're at.

Daniel: [00:53:48] Yeah. that

Andrew: [00:53:50] trying to burn us at the end.

Daniel: [00:53:54] was, that team was in Flint, right?

Andrew: [00:54:04] So mean, I'm going to throw one to you. Do you remember the very speaking of competition? very first competition I ever went to period was with Kevin Miller. a Lego competition and we failed miserably

at it.

And we practiced, we practiced so much before it, and we're like first or second grade and we're like, we're going to freaking crush this.

Cause we've been practicing building stuff with Legos. And we got there and I don't know what happened, but they had like weird rules and like specific ways to do stuff. And

Kevin: [00:54:36] Nope.

Nope. We

failed got a

participation ribbon.

Yup. That was it. Or whenever we played basketball, I remember

the, our terrible

Andrew: [00:54:45] No, I was not talking about that.

Kevin: [00:54:46] Oh man. We're the worst group of second graders you've ever seen.

Andrew: [00:54:50] So for everybody listening, I don't play with Legos after that point. And I also never played basketball after that

Daniel: [00:54:55] No, that's a lie


you tried out for basketball in middle school. between me, you and Hutch were the last like options to get.

Oh, it was well, okay. Maybe there are four of us.


no. Hutch made it Hutch at Hudson. it was between the four of us only two were going to make it on the B team.

So this wasn't like, you're about to make it to the 18. This was

Andrew: [00:55:16] Yup.

Are you sure? I think it was between the four of us and there was only three going to be cut or three were going to stay because I remember they came down to me and Alan and Alan was like, Six inches shorter than me because I hit my growth spurt early and we had to do a free throw contest. And whoever got the most free throws got the last spot and I lost,

Kevin: [00:55:40] you the only one cut.

Andrew: [00:55:42] I was the only one cut at least cut at that point. I think some people got cut the first day because we had like run a lap. And if you couldn't run a lap, you were cut. But yeah, of people who could run a lap around the basketball court, I was the only one that was cut.

So basketball and Legos, both ruined by me trying to go competitive and people wonder what's wrong with me?

Kevin: [00:56:00] never quite got over that. Did ya?

Andrew: [00:56:02] No, not at all.

Yeah, I got an engraver my senior year. I was so excited to use it

in hindsight. I'm like, that was the dumbest thing I

Kevin: [00:56:14] Oh. I wore my friendship necklace for a while though.

Andrew: [00:56:21] made everybody a new symbol. I came up with each person. I gave a friendship, necklace thing too. I made a specific symbol for that person own symbol and something.

Daniel: [00:56:35] I

honestly, this is terrible, but I don't remember this at all,

I was just going to say if it was senior year in high school, then that was the necklace phase. I almost certainly wore it.

Andrew: [00:56:53]

we all, did. We all had some wild locks of love.

Daniel: [00:56:57] y'all, don't want to see me right now because,

I'm almost at ponytail phase. I can do a little ponytail

Andrew: [00:57:03]

So have y'all seen dash and Lily on Netflix.

Okay. For those out there who have either read the book or listen to our TV episode, this is one of the things culturally relevant. It came out in December, it's Netflix original and it's a TV show for Christmas, like after next weekend, depending on when you listen to this after Christmas, it's out.

Like we can't talk about it anymore. So it's a Christmas TV show. And there's this Asian girl in it who made friendship bracelets for all of her kids at this dance in middle school. And while I was saying it was funny that you brought up the necklace, cause I hadn't thought about it in for ever, because it was one of the things I was kind of embarrassed in hindsight.

I was like, man,

that was a little weird.

Oh, thanks man. I'm it really, really does make me excited. So it's one of those things, like in hindsight, I'm like weird stuff in high school, whatever. but she, she has this point where, and I'm sorry for anybody that this might be a spoiler, but she made friendship bracelets for everybody at the school dance she went to cause she was this like nerdy, outcast Everybody took them in at the end of the dance. They'll throw them on the floor and made fun of her. And I was like, Oh no, the necklaces.

Daniel: [00:58:13] Yes.

Andrew: [00:58:13] And I'm like next to Shalom and I'm trying to keep it. And I'm like play cool, man. Don't, don't be too sad about this. Just there's be normal person sad about the friendship bracelets.

Kevin: [00:58:22] are going to suspect something.

Andrew: [00:58:24] Keep the tears back, baby. So that came up just this was like yesterday.

You know, I love my friends. I'm a friend guy.

guys, we're going to wrap it up there. So Kevin, thank you so much for coming on. It was good to catch back up with you.

I know we don't talk probably as much as we should, it's been really fun and we appreciate your time So thank you very much for taking time out of the day and,

letting us borrow you.

Yeah, thanks. I enjoyed it. And,

Kevin: [00:59:00] I just bought the book myself. everybody dead by tomorrow. Go buy it. I have no idea if it's good yet, because I haven't read it, but, uh,

Andrew: [00:59:09] It, thanks for the shout out. Well, guys, as Kevin said, we have a book out, so we'd love it. If you check it out now that he's mentioned it.