Andrew: Hey guys, welcome back to Dead by Tomorrow. This episode, we're going to be talking about opportunities. If you were unaware, this is opportunities part two, so you might want to listen to part one if you haven't already in part two, we're going to be talking about kind of the side effects of what pursuing opportunities does for you, how it affects your social life, how it affects your career, and a lot of the benefits and why saying yes and pursuing those opportunities is such a great idea.

So without further ado, let's get this party started. Okay. Daniel, part of the reason we did this episode and have this entire concept of opportunities is a story you told me that really freaked me out a while back. It was one of those things that I realized we were mortal whenever you told me about this.

So without ruining any surprise for the audience, you want to tell that story.

Daniel: [00:01:05] Yeah, sure. I didn't realize it freaked you out and caused you to, have a little bit of a existential crisis,

Andrew: [00:01:11] It did. Like seriously, up until that point, I was like, we're pretty much invincible. Daniel might be more invincible because he seems to get hurt less. But like, I mean, if Daniel's fine, I'm fine. And so then, this has happened. I was like, Oh, Whoa. It really did freak me out.

Daniel: [00:01:25] To be fair, I mean, I didn't die so invincible until proven otherwise. Right.

Andrew: [00:01:30] That's true. Just we can accept pain. We just can't die apparently.

Daniel: [00:01:34] But no, the story that I think you're talking about, I assume we're on the same page here. And if I start telling this story and it's totally wrong, don't stop me because that would be rude. But tell me afterward.

Andrew: [00:01:42] Yeah. I'll make fun of you long after the fact.

Daniel: [00:01:45] this is a story away from work actually. And, in my job, part of what I do and I don't do it quite as much now, but part of what I was doing a lot of, maybe three years ago now was helping, with our sales process. And so I'm not in sales, I'm not a sales. Person nor do I ever really want to be.

but I do have a lot of experience with. Essentially our product, like our main selling point, which is health pros. And, these really smart people to help out with benefits. Cause I used to be one and then I managed them recruit and train all this sort of stuff. And so whenever we are trying to sell a client and convince them that health pros are really awesome and that they should pay us money to work with health pros.

Part of what they'll do. The sales team will do is bring me in as the expert on health pros. And I talk about health grades, and I talk about how I used to be one and all this fun stuff. And so there'd be a lot of situations where, I would join a meeting in our nice fancy boardroom, like glass table, glass room, overlooks the city of Dallas.

It's like the 57th floor. It's like really a swanky yeah. And I get brought in, always on finalist [00:03:00] meetings, like. To help close the deal. So I would say fairly high pressure. And In one particular instance. we were trying to sell this pretty big client and it's not uncommon at all to have, a VP or something like that in the room helping to make the sale.

But in this one, in the room we had all the normal sales people. We had the client, we had my bosses. Boss's boss and his boss also in the room. So this was a big client. definitely a household name and I've done a bunch of these before, but you know, I always feel a little bit nervous and just go into this one, felt even a little bit extra nervous, cause it's like, okay, this is kind of a big deal. Like there's a lot of eyes on this one. Definitely, a big opportunity. And there were some other things that kind of factored into, the day. So one felt nervous for sure. two, this meeting was supposed to happen around lunch time. something that if you're not involved in sales and these types of meetings that you'll learn is, Times are very flexible, happens all the time.

we're supposed to go on at 12, we're running behind. It's going to be one, just kidding. We finished early, come in now at 1230, like very common sort of thing. so I was waiting for lunchtime, waiting to eat beforehand meeting got pushed out until about two. Still hadn't really had much of a lunch yet.

Cause I was waiting to do this meeting. so going in. Feeling not at my best, but it was ready to make it happen, been ready to close the deal and do my part. And so I launch into my little part of the pitch where I'm talking about the health pro. I actually do some, like at that time did some reenacting and some, roleplay and.

I feel like it's going pretty well. everybody's kinda nodding along and everything like that. And then I start to get a little bit lightheaded and my hearing starts to feel like somebody put cotton balls in my ear. The room starts to get. Really bright. And I realized like I'm very close to passing out here.

And so I don't really know what to do. So I just do my best to try to keep going and act like nothing is wrong. And before I know it, I wake back up because I had completely passed out in the middle of our sales presentation. I'm in this room full of people. My, boss's boss is. Over checking on me trying to make sure that I'm okay.

I wake up and I'm a little confused about what's happening and he, at that point thought that I had a seizure actually. and clear the room ENT has come in, run all the vitals on me to make sure I'm okay. They let me know that. Yeah, they think that I'm okay. I think that I'm fine, but I'm asked me if I want to go to the hospital and I work in healthcare benefits.

And so I ask him, I'm not dying. Okay. No, I don't want to go to hospital. Don't put me in an ambulance. Don't want that kind of bill right now.

[00:06:00] Andrew: [00:05:59] That's expensive.

Daniel: [00:06:01] Very expensive. but yeah, so I left went home, took it easy. went and saw, a doctor and just Talk through basically what had happened was, the combination of being really stressed.

not having eaten as much as I should have. I had actually been a little bit sick earlier in the week. And so it was still coming off, being sick. I did not sleep well at all the night before. And so all of those things came together to create this, cocktail that resulted in me.

Straight up passing out in the middle of a room full of probably some of the most important people in my company that I would interact with and have interacted with.

Andrew: [00:06:39] Geez. It's still crazy, man. Like, because I've never passed out. I've gotten really close when. I got a shot back in high school and that was about it. So that again, just freaks me out. We are still mortal and that's kinda terrifying to do in front of so many big wigs. So how did you handle that situation afterwards?

Daniel: [00:06:58] Yeah. I mean, there was certainly some embarrassment that goes into something like that. but what I will say. I there were some things I learned about myself that day, but some things I learned about some of the people I work with too. And so I was so impressed with, the, he's the president of our company, so impressed with his response on, really wanting to make sure that I was okay.

really impressed with, his boss as well. I don't even actually know what his title is, but again, just wanting to make sure that everything was okay. That, I was fine. they actually pretty quickly wrapped up that meeting afterwards. And our president came down sat in the wellness room with me, and just made sure that I was okay. my boss also came down, everybody was checking on me making sure that it was fine. There was no like, how could you do this in the middle? Like mess up the sale, blah, blah, blah.

Like, nothing like that at all. Which was really important to shape and give space and safety for me to reply or respond to that. Well, and so, yeah, after that just took the time to look and see, okay, how. How did I get to that point? Like what happened to create this situation? what can I learn from this?

Like, should I totally stop doing these demos or, totally back away. Like what can I do from here? And so it just gave me a lot of opportunity for reflection and, I ultimately went back to my Boston, said, Hey, I. Want to take a little bit of a break from this, from doing these demos.

but I don't want to put us in a rough spot. And there were a couple of my peers at the time that were, working on being involved in demos more. So I took the time to make sure that I could help train them up and get them ready to cover for any of the things in the meantime, but also made it known that I want to do another one again.

And just make sure that, I'm not letting the fear of, this could happen again, get in the way of something that I was good at. And so I. Made sure that down the road, I [00:09:00] got involved and did another one, made sure to eat ahead of time to get a good night's sleep and, just took care of my body and didn't take for granted the fact that, nerves can be a thing and all those things can come together and cause a physical response.

And so have done. Several demos since then, with no issue, we actually even landed that sale, eventually down the road. So, there weren't negatives that came from it. even though there easily could have been. and I attribute that to a combination of, my. Peers and supervisors creating a safe space for me and not making it worse than it needed to be.

And also me taking the time to reflect and just ask some questions about the experience and use it as an opportunity to grow, as opposed to just viewing it as this like terrible, horrendous experience.

Andrew: [00:09:53] Dang, man. I have so much to unpack now from that. So one that's, it's awesome that your leadership team did something like that and you're able to learn from it. I'm going to point out some stuff that I think is really cool about that story for the audience. And maybe, I don't know if we've ever actually talked about this because when you first told me about this was what four years ago.

Daniel: [00:10:12] maybe three years ago,

Andrew: [00:10:14] it's been long enough that I hadn't read some of these books that I want to reference here. First the leadership level there. That is, if you are doing anything leadership oriented, if you're managing people, that kind of response is very uncommon, I think, and very important to be doing you, being able to encourage that kind of loyalty in your.

direct reports or, grain, direct reports, whatever it is. these people who are working at this company, if you're especially the president, being able to show that much Karen involvement for your employees is so important for the culture of your company. And that goes all the way down to, if you just are managing one person, you're training somebody, you've got an apprentice that you're showing how to do entry level stuff with like, That needs to be all the way up and down the chain.

And if you can do that, that is going to be so important to success in a company in your career, even in your personal life, if you can translate that to caring about those people around you. So I mean that by itself is a worthwhile lesson out of that story. So on top of that, you looking at those opportunities, that's a term from, I think it was Jocko Willick or.

David Goggins. One of those guys talked about after action reports, which is this military thing where after an engagement, you, or really anything you fill out this report, that's like, Hey, here's what we do. Here's what went well. Here's what went bad. and you just explain everything that happened.

You kind of review and look for new opportunities and appreciate the opportunities that came up and all that kind of stuff. And I'm obviously butchering it for anybody who is actually in the military. There's sorry about that. but in our civilian lives, it's a really good thing to do.

If you have an event like that. It's really easy to either dwell on it and dredge up fear and the negativity that came from it instead of objectively looking at it and seeing it [00:12:00] as a series of events and determining what caused what have been and what could have gone differently and what happened and everything and like that.

And you being able to sit down and do that after action report and figure out, Hey, this is where I'm at. This is how I feel about it. X, Y, and Z, that's really good and healthy for you as an individually. Sure. To move past an event that could have had much more negative consequences, not just for your job, but for your mindset and how you felt about it yourself and how you approached work and how you approached your peers at work.

And, that's something that's really easily, especially you gotta be ashamed of, passing out is generally not seen as a. Strong manly thing. And a lot of us get caught up in that and being able to share that experience and tell their people about it and then move on from it.

That's really powerful too, because that gives you a certain level of inner confidence and like yeah, bad things can happen. And it doesn't matter. I don't care about that perspective. So being able to do an after action report on anything good or bad that happens and find those silver linings and find those things that you can improve on is really important.

Daniel: [00:13:03] I first was introduced to the drama triangle , which I think it comes from Stephen Cartman and he maps out or uses this triangle to talk about, drama, intense relationships and interpersonal connections. And so in the triangle you have, three sides. So you have the victim. this is somebody who. Always blames. The issues on an external source, feels oppressed feels helpless, is indecisive.

and basically it's has this negative feeling, right? And then you have the rescuer who is looking to. Enable really the victim. So they go to their rescue and they give them permission to fail. They, they really feed into that negativity and Make it okay for the victim to stay in that state.

And then finally you have the persecutor. so that's the person who is saying, it's your fault. They are blaming, they're criticizing. they're attacking the victim. And so these things all build on each other. And I think in. negative interactions, that can really get in the way of opportunity.

And that can make it really hard to do those after action reports and to grow. And so in my situation, if I had played the role of the victim and been like, Oh, I know, I can't believe, like I had so much already going on. and they asked me to do this and, I've had trouble sleeping and like, it's all like somebody else's fault when really in reality, it's like, No, like I said yes to these opportunities, I, didn't take care of what I needed to, physically to put myself in a good place.

And, I didn't raise my hand if I was, sick or whatever it was say, Hey, I'm not, I can't actually take this on. So like, I've got to take ownership there. And, my boss could have played that role of being the rescuer and saying, Oh, [00:15:00] that was really hard.

we're not gonna, you don't have to do any of these anymore. we're going to pull you away from that. And at that point I wouldn't have had the chance to grow. Wouldn't have had the chance, rebuild, that confidence and. Then, obviously my, that, the president who was in that meeting could have been the persecutor and could have come at me.

And like, what were you thinking? you blew that sale for us. You messed all of that up. Right. and obviously that, that didn't happen. so whenever there is that safe space, we do have that opportunity to. Reflect in grow, from opportunities. And I think that's so important when I think about an opportunity, I also think about a really a triangle to it.

So I think there is the initial action that's in front of you for an opportunity. So if you're thinking about, a job posting. That's an opportunity and you can take that action by submitting your application or doing an interview, right? So like that's the action that you're taking. And then I think opportunities often also come with.

Reactions reaction opportunities. And so anytime you're working on something and you're chasing down an opportunity, things change throughout, you've got to react, you've got to adapt. And so if you're in the interview and you find out that, I don't know that there's another candidate who they really feel like is better fit.

How are you reacting? How are you adapting and changing? are you throwing in the towel or are you adjusting your approach or, if you. Or leading up a project and you get a report halfway through that, something isn't happening correctly. Are you losing a member of your team? Again, you've got to react as a part of seeing that opportunity through, and then the last piece is the reflection.

That's the debrief. That's the, after the fact that's looking and seeing, how did this opportunity go? how did I. Act, how did I react? Did it go well? Okay. If it went well, why who helped me make that happen? What decisions that I make, where this was a win, and if it didn't go well, why did that happen?

what could I have done differently to have gotten a better result? And I think so often. Whenever we finish up an opportunity. When, whenever we come to the end, we just kind of sigh a sigh of relief that it's done. And we either celebrate that it was a win and we don't think much about it, or we maybe are upset that it didn't work out.

And we're just disgusted, frustrated, and just want to move on and not think about it anymore. so I think we shoot ourselves in the foot by not taking the time to reflect.

Andrew: [00:17:35] Absolutely reflection is really important across the board. It's hard to grow. If you aren't reflecting on what you've been up to, I guess you could say, if you don't really flicked on where you're going and why you're going that direction and what you've been doing to get in that direction, you are probably going to miss some things that either did help you out along the way, or are definitely hurting new.

And you're just keep doing it. [00:18:00] and a lot of what you said, it comes down to ownership of your, like your actions. You're saying, it's really hard for someone to blame you for something and like that the drama triangle, if you say, Hey, this is where I stand. I'm not the victim here. I take responsibility.

And, I messed up and did all this kind of stuff. You're not going to have somebody trying to pass off, like, you're not going to have the other two sides of the triangle. No, one's going to be trying to throw a fit at you. If you're like, yeah, I messed up. I could have done this better.

that's usually the end of it. It's whenever people don't take ownership of their actions or their choices that you have people picking sides on, where they stand with what you said.

Daniel: [00:18:37] Yeah. And so when you think about that triangle, where do you feel like you find yourself? Do you feel like you've been in a part of a drama triangle and have played any of those roles?

Andrew: [00:18:48] I have probably played all three roles at different points, unfortunately. I mean, even semi recently, I know. At different times as a manager, I was playing the prosecutor or the persecutor, and I've also played the, shoulder to cry on, Hey, this person wasn't trained, right. Or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I've, played the victim myself. I've, there's been plenty of times where I'm like, Oh, I just didn't get enough sleep or XYZ. Now. I think we've all had those moments where we've done that kind of thing. So it's hard to admit to, but I've totally done. All three.

Daniel: [00:19:18] Yeah. Do you feel like there's any one that you particularly gravitate towards?

Andrew: [00:19:22] I know that generally, when I was working as a manager, I gravitated towards the persecutor. I was usually the person, if there was that kind of triangle was, pointing the finger, like, Hey, you screwed this up. You need to, you need to do better. And I think there were just certain roles that were filled.

At least in our office where, we had people who consistently wanted to play the victim and we had people who consistently wanted to protect victims and, help them feel better. And then you had me and, maybe a few other people there that consistently ended up playing the bad guy to be like, Hey, no, you screwed up.

Don't screw up. So I think that's what happens a lot though in a lot of corporate offices and other places where you have. People reporting the other people, you're going to have people who don't want to take responsibility for their actions. And you're going to have people who don't understand a better way to get people, to do what they want.

They crack a whip and they, point fingers and demand better results. and then all that said, you're going to have the people that are not having the finger pointed at them this time. They're gonna be like, Hey, that wasn't fun. Last time I was getting. Persecuted. So I want to make the other person who is getting stepped on, feel better because I've been there and I want them to be on my side when it's my turn to play the victim.

Daniel: [00:20:37] Gotcha. And so within your organization, did you see, I guess, a detriment to innovation, ideas, opportunities, those types of things.

Andrew: [00:20:48] It depends on which department or which sector and what time, life where you're in. I know at the very beginning of my, say leadership career, I was pretty bad at it. I was. always looking for other people to blame for what went [00:21:00] wrong, or if something did go wrong, I was looking for ways to make it not my fault.

whenever that's happening, nothing really happens. That's positive or is, growth oriented for the organization. So once I started making efforts towards bettering myself as a peer or a subordinate, or as a leader in a leadership role, it did help start moving the dial on we'd have, if you have somebody who is like, Hey, I am responsible a hundred percent for what just happened here, then.

You lose out on a lot of this extra drama and excitement and circus that happens, that revolves around the emails and the investigation and all that kind of stuff. When somebody owns a problem and claims it as their responsibility and chases it down and takes full responsibility for it. Other people are given this like breathing room to.

Take risk and do other stuff because they at least feel like they are less at risk for being on the chopping block for it. If somebody else they know is going to cover them and take responsibility and everything like that. So

I don't know.

Daniel: [00:22:08] you mentioned the military earlier. It makes me think of, another military example, comes from Simon Sinek. I feel like we've talked about this before, but you know, his book leaders eat last is really all about the idea of leadership, creating that.

Safe space creating that. I guess being willing to sacrifice self for the good of the team and the team feeling that, believing that, understanding that, at that point is a lot more likely to, like you're saying to take risks, to seek out, uh, an opportunity that might be, a little bit scary. Cause they feel like, okay, well if I do this and if it doesn't go well, I know my boss has my back, and they're gonna cover for me and they're going to help me grow from it, even if I don't succeed.

Andrew: [00:23:02] something you said earlier, you were talking about the fear with your passing out and. It's partly because I love this book, but I saw the trailer last night for the new dune movie. And that is one of my favorite things to come from.

That book is the litany against fear. fear is so harmful for what we're doing, because it almost never is truly founded or at least in the sense that we are feeling that fear, like our expectations of what's going to happen is almost never what could actually happen. we imagine worst case scenario.

That's probably not even possible. So fear is such a dangerous thing. And if you need a good, Pneumonic trigger, whatever you wanna call it. The litany against fear from Dune is just my favorite thing. sorry. Have you read that book?

Daniel: [00:23:45] Yup. I have, yeah. Fear is the mind killer. I agree with you that fear. Often times like what we are afraid of and the physical response that we have because of fear of failure often is not [00:24:00] proportionate to the actual danger. especially. You don't now in the corporate world, all that sort of stuff.

It's like, you're not going to from, giving a presentation or from screwing up a meeting or something like that. And my whole experience with passing out was in some ways liberating because. I can pretty confidently say going into most meetings now that I've experienced the worst case scenario of what can happen.

And it was okay. Like, I'm fine. Like it wasn't fun. I didn't love that, but I. Kept working like, my life didn't end my career didn't end. And so if I've already experienced, whether it's essentially worst case scenario at this point, like what else do I have to really be afraid of? so moving through those things and being able to say, okay, I've experienced this.

And I learned from, and grew from it. It can lead to confidence on the other side,

Andrew: [00:24:58] That's awesome. And that's, what's even better point. Cause if you're looking at opportunities and a lot of the excuses we give for not pursuing opportunity and it's, it can be really one of two things either. We are afraid of that opportunity. We're afraid of failing at it or. looking dumb for pursuing it or, you know, there's that kind of stuff, but it all comes down to, we're either afraid of something associated with that opportunity or we're just lazy.

Like we're too lazy to pursue it, which I would almost guess is sometimes a different, it's what you're telling yourself when you're actually afraid of failing, Oh, I don't want to do that. That looks too hard. It's really. I don't want to do that because I don't want to put in the work and possibly fail at it.

But really if you ask somebody they're either too lazy or they're too afraid of something to really pursue an opportunity.

Daniel: [00:25:44] yeah. Or it could be, something you don't think is worth your time, which I think is another possibility. So if we go back to, a question of what do you say yes to, I think some of the things that you should start out by considering is, the opportunity worthwhile?

Is it something that should be pursued? And so isn't really worth your time. And I think that's a question that is valid to ask

Andrew: [00:26:07] Oh, absolutely. I'm kind of in dislike post, like, Hey, this is a good opportunity. Like there's plenty of opportunities that are actually , not opportunities, but when you actually see something that's like, Hey, this could make me more money or, Hey, this could be a cool relationship I build, or, Hey, there's that cute girl?

And I want to go talk to her. And you're single and whatever the stuff is like, this is post. you know, if you're married in a relationship and you see the cute girl, that's not called an opportunity. That's that might be an opportunity to ruin your relationship or something, but it's not a positive worth your time opportunity.

So this is assuming you've already established, Hey, this is something that would be good. And then you decide not to pursue it.

Daniel: [00:26:43] Yeah. So then if you decide not to pursue it, then, it can be an issue of you just don't have the time to realistically commit to it. And it's, going back to, it would make you say no to other things that are of higher value, but I, think it is. Worth considering in [00:27:00] realistically, considering your ability before saying yes to things as well, because, if you're saying yes to something, if you're chasing something down where people are going to rely on you, then you gotta be able to come through.

and there are some situations where it's perfectly okay to fail. Like anything it's possible to fail, but if you go into something. Knowing that you are going to fail. Like, if I have the opportunity Andrew, to like, do a surgery on your knee, that's not something that I should say yes to, and be like, well, I might fail, but I learned a lot about the knee and the process

Andrew: [00:27:36] yeah, I appreciate you saying no on that one. Well, and yeah, there's definitely things that you shouldn't say as to, I was actually thinking of like, yeah. if someone offers me to go to space and be an astronaut, I'd probably say, yes, I totally shouldn't because I am unqualified.

Daniel: [00:27:49] Yeah, but you got to again, be really realistic about that. And that's something that, there are spaces where. You should fake it until you make it and you might not be completely qualified, but you're almost there, in saying yes and getting into there, it'll bring you up to that space.

and I think we gotta be willing to do that step outside of our comfort zones. But we also don't want to create this reputation where we've bitten off more than we can shoe. And it's like, yeah. he said yes to all this sort of stuff, but the result was really subpar and that can actually close doors for you in the future.

And so again, it's, really being intentional about. What you're saying yes, to being, realistic, whether that's, realistic, and pulling back your estimation of your abilities or being realistic and boosting, and having more confidence in your abilities. I think that should some factor into what you're saying yes.

To.

Andrew: [00:28:43] Sure. And that reminds me of something. Part of knowing if you're biting off more than you can chew in, this is this doesn't apply to the girl at the bar, Honestly in that situation, it really is laziness or fear. If we're talking about a big project at work or a really big side hustle, that's going to eat up a lot of your time when you're looking at that kind of trade off.

One of the best things that helps is having a plan in this is not like a generic, like, Hey, I'm going to have a plan to do this project. It's a, you need to have a plan of what you're doing, period. Be it a schedule, whatever you're doing at home paired with whatever you're doing at work and everything like that.

So you can say, all right, this is where my time commitments are, and this is where my energy is going to be spent. And this is where I'm heading, directionally in life. And this is what I want to do. And if you look at this plan that you've got, and you say, Hey, I want to do. These things this year, and they're going to take this much time and this much money.

And if I do this other thing that just got offered to me, it's going to probably cost this much time and this much money or this much focus. And if you don't have the balance sheet to make those trade offs on your energy and focus and time, you're not going to know whether or not that opportunity is good or not.

Always have at least a loose plan, know where you want to go [00:30:00] and what direction you're wanting that way when the right opportunities come along, when to say yes. And when to say no,

Daniel: [00:30:04] Yeah, I really like that. I think that's a good exercise to help determine is, think about okay. If I really did this, let me think about. Putting pen to paper on how that would happen and that can help to determine that ability. And I think another important question throughout that is what is the consequence.

If I fail being able to answer that question is also important. If the consequence is hurt pride, or the consequences, you lose a certain amount of money or something like that, then decide, can I live with that? And like you're saying the situation with the girl at the bar, like. It's hurt pride.

You can live with hurt, pride, go ask for a phone number. but in a situation where yeah, I'm going to do this startup and it's going to cost me $50,000. If I fail. You know what I'm saying? Can Kenneth, can I lose that money? Is that okay? I'm in or the situation like with the knee, right? Like if I fail Endrew cannot walk anymore.

Andrew: [00:31:01] Well on a, if anybody's listening and $50,000, doesn't sound like a big loss, you are more than welcome to holler at us. And we have some deals for you. you know what? You're gonna have to talk to Daniel. You can just talk to me. I'll give you my cell phone number, but no, you're right.

It's you've got to get, you've got to have all that in mind and not do knee surgery on your friend or go to Mars.

Daniel: [00:31:21] you're Jason, like, we could ask Jason for

Andrew: [00:31:24] Yeah, shout out to Jason. He is allowed to do knee surgery. he is actually qualified and is the only person I personally know that is qualified. and I don't think a lot of people know those kind of people.

So shout out to that episode. If anybody hasn't listened to it, go check out Jason's orthopedic surgeon episode. He does not teach us how to do surgery, but it's still cool that he knows how to.

have you ever heard of a crazier by the way, it's a something from atomic habits. It's an effect

Daniel: [00:31:55] Cretia

Andrew: [00:31:56] that could be mispronouncing it.

Daniel: [00:31:58] I haven't, which I am in the process of reading that book. I'm about halfway through, but I must not have gotten to that chapter yet.

Andrew: [00:32:06] Okay. So it is, it has a little bit to do with plans and it's essentially when you make plans, this is why people fail at making plans. And it's, I'm putting this out there as a cautionary tale for people listening and following our advice. When you make a plan, a lot of the times what happens is. You're making this plan for your future self.

It doesn't apply to your present self because this is some other, you that's going to be doing this thing. So this is why a lot of people have trouble, you know, losing weight or writing a book or learning a language because you schedule out, I'm going to do 15 minutes of. Writing before bed.

And you schedule that into your plan because it's easy to say you're going to do that tomorrow because that's a different you. So the accreditor effect is essentially the way that our brain can trick us into separating the present self from the future self. And. Make it really hard to follow through with plans, but make it really [00:33:00] easy to try and make them in sync.

You're going to be doing something productive. It's motion, not action, which is a big thing for me that I've talked about before. you just gotta be really cognizant that you're vulnerable to this kind of effect and ability to do a lot of motion without making a lot of action on your actual plans.

Daniel: [00:33:17] Gotcha. Do you have an example of this from your life?

Andrew: [00:33:20] Oh sure. many examples, but we'll stick with one. That's pretty relatable. I think a lot of people are going to dump that. and this actually goes with the, Best effort versus most efficient method mentality as well. So when you're trying to go to the gym and you're trying to get in shape, or you're trying to lose weight, it's really easy to think about it and talk about it.

And in my case, I love making big workout plans. I'll build out six weeks of exercises, here's my five day split. I've got chest and back, super set it on Mondays and. Legs with a squad emphasis on Wednesdays and so on and so on. And I'll, I'll build out down to the reps and the sets and the specific exercises and the cardio and everything.

I'll do, progressive overload and all this stuff for six weeks. You know, the things that people will pay lots of money for. I love doing it, but that's all motion. Me wanting to get stronger, bigger muscles, better shape. I'm doing a lot of arm waving whenever I make those workout plans.

when you buy all the workout gear on Amazon, or you get that gym membership and you do a bunch of research on the internet, that's all emotion. That's all the start of an equation effect because. Your goal isn't to be able to get in shape or to be able to lose weight. Your goal is to lose weight or to get in shape and to do that, you have to eat healthier.

You have to actually show up and do the workout and you have to put in the time and the effort. And lots of people think that they're doing something productive when they're spinning their wheels, doing all that motion. And I do that all the time. I. I love researching and I love reading and I like all the other stuff, but whenever it comes down to brass tacks, it's a lot harder to show up and go to the gym at 5:00 AM every morning, which is not something I do.

I go at 5:00 PM or 6:00 PM because I don't like that kind of thing, but whatever it is, whenever you're supposed to be going or whatever you're supposed to be eating, you got to say no to the pizza. You've got to hit the gym and lift the weights and, run the mile and all that kind of jazz.

So that's the equation making the plan. Is for your future self, but you've got to get in the mind that you are who you are and you have to do it yourself. He can't put it off till tomorrow, which is the whole concept of Dead by Tomorrow.

Daniel: [00:35:28] Yeah, I agree. And part of what I've read so far, and that book talks about, basically creating an identity for yourself and. That is something that can help to combat some of that equation effect. it's not, I'm going to become a gym rat and I've got to like do all of this stuff before I get it.

It's saying, you know what? Like, I'm a gym goer. that's who I am. and. Then you [00:36:00] start to take this mindset of, okay, it's 5:00 AM. My alarm goes off, what would Jim go redo? They'd get up. And they would go to the gym cause, and that's, an identity that I have. And you start to take on that mindset of somebody that, has that identity as opposed to.

just being like, well, I want to be that. but right now I'm going to be a slob and I'm going to sleep in

Andrew: [00:36:23] Dude. I love that because there was something I read somewhere or heard. I don't know what it was, but essentially someone was like, Hey, you people who are like, Oh, who I am should be enough. Or I am who I am. That kind of thing. Identity is so silly because. Your identity is not who you tell yourself you are, it's whatever you do.

And you can tell yourself and you can encourage it. But like in the end you can always be a better version of yourself. And that doesn't change who you are as a person. And the sense of what your identity is you becoming healthier and better and going to the gym. That's not change Andrew from being the Andrew.

Everybody loves to like, Oh, that guy's a Dick. I don't become a different person. It's just, I become a better person. so many people are attached to who they think they are as an identity and all these choices they make because it's their identity and it's all BS, like, just be a better you.

And if you are a crappy person, be someone else. You become a better person known get caught up in this whole Disney dream of you are who you are and the world should accept you for it. Like get over yourself.

Daniel: [00:37:24] Yeah, and this could be, obviously my Christian background talking, but think our default nature or default identities in so many cases is not super desirable. It's not, it's really not like something that. We want to just stay there. and so I agree with you that I think there is a need to, change that identity to grow in.

even if you don't have that same background in all of that, I think, People by default are not, are typically not super health conscious or relationship conscious or all those sorts of things like that happens because you work on that and decided, you know what? Like, I want to be a more empathetic person because.

It didn't really feel so great whenever I said that really rude thing to somebody and they cried and they were upset and I, I didn't feel anything until after that fact, it's like, Oh man, that was bad. Like, I should be more conscious of this other person before they reach a point where they cry because of a terrible thing I've said.

And, again, those things like that doesn't happen by default.

Andrew: [00:38:35] No man. there's the easy road and then there's the right road. And they very rarely intersect.

Okay, , I'm going to pivot us down a less depressing path on, uh, the human condition. I had a little research for this episode that I wanted to get out there for those people who might be tuning off because they think that we hate everybody.

[00:39:00] So before that happens, A reason that you want to be saying yes to opportunities, especially social ones is it opens doors, right. And one of those doors that opens is careers like new careers, new jobs. There was a study that was done and. And y'all should understand. This is important because Daniel is usually the guy that likes the statistics and that kind of stuff.

And if I'm saying it like it gotta be important

Daniel: [00:39:25] Or it's wrong.

Andrew: [00:39:26] or it's wrong.

if I'm giving this to you without a screen in front of me, it's like 99% wrong. He says into a microphone, not looking at a screen. But this one I was given. And so it is probably at least half. Right. And so they did the study and essentially the chances of you getting accepted for a job that you interview are two and a half to six and a half percent higher.

If you were referred to that position by a current employee, which you're all probably like, yeah, we know it's an inside job, but like, We know that it is across the board, an inside job, and that let's say 5% that you get accepted more. That means out of 10 job offers, you're talking about a 50%, more likely chance to have a job at the end of those five interviews.

If you have. People on the inside. So to say, net is a significant increase in your job hunt or your career movement. And this doesn't just apply to, you know, you trying to find that new job, this is internal. You know, if you are trying to move internally in a company, you're trying to move upwards in a company.

If you have friends or those social connections, you're talking about out of five new positions, five new promotions, you're going to move up and, I've lived that a nepotistic life, but Daniel you've, you have moved up in a company repeatedly that you have no family relations or, any old friends that used to go to school with you or anything like that.

So what's your experience. Have you noticed that you're moving up more to you're more than your peers or do you call this, Andrew stat bunk?

Daniel: [00:40:58] Well right now, I'm still trying to think back to statistics and to think about if it's factually correct that if you do a, 10 job interviews, you have a overall 50% chance higher of getting a job.

Andrew: [00:41:12] no. don't check my math on that. that was a, on the fly and we don't need that kind of negativity.

Daniel: [00:41:17] Fair enough. All right. Well, we won't divulge in that.

Andrew: [00:41:21] Do your own math people. Don't call me.

Daniel: [00:41:24] okay. So I'm honestly surprised that the is not higher just in my experience. Whenever I interview somebody that is referred from somebody that's currently in the company, Well, and less, you know, they put their name on the referral and then I talked to that person. I like, no, they're terrible. Don't give them a job.

I don't think that's a real referral though, but I so often in those cases, we typically hire because it feels like a little bit more of a known entity because it's like, okay, well, if we like. Chelsea. and then Chelsea's and interviews. And if she's anything like Chelsea, Chelsea is great. [00:42:00] So let's give Chelsea's friend a job.

Plus we assume that Chelsea is being real with her friend about what it's like to work there, what the expectations are as to this person's not coming in. And it's like all of a sudden starting like, wait, what is this job? I don't think I really like this. And then also, Chelsea's friend is coming in automatically has a friend at the company is more engaged, more involved.

So like us that's huge having a referral. so important

Andrew: [00:42:25] I've not gotten a job that I think the only place I worked was waiting tables for a few months in college. I was the only job I've ever gotten that I didn't have that inside, man. That referral everything else I've ever worked was, Hey, Andrew, you want a job over here? And I'm like, yeah, I guess so.

Sounds fun.

Daniel: [00:42:44] Yeah. Well, it's huge. And like you said though, I didn't know anybody at my company when I started. and for me, I mean, I think, advancement opportunities. To move up. it's been going all the way back to what we talked about early in the episode. It's viewing opportunities with that triangle approach of looking at the action that's in front of me, looking at the chance to take the opportunity and really considering is this within my ability, can I do a good job here?

What is the price of failure? and then as I'm working through that, Being able to react well, because things change and you have to be able to adapt and be flexible. And so I think I've done a fair job reacting, but I think the part that's really benefited me the most is just being able to reflect afterwards and not only.

for myself and my own like journal, being able to reflect and apply it, which is really valuable. But it's being able to articulate that too, those that have interviewed me or that, have been in positions to make decisions on promotions, just being able to. Share. Okay. Well, here's how I made this decision.

my thought process, and then after the fact, like here's what I took away from that. Here's what I learned. I think just being able to articulate that has been really important for me in my own career. And it's been my thing. That's helped me still be able to advance, even though I haven't necessarily had the, Pre capital of relationships.

Andrew: [00:44:17] That's fair, but I mean, are you not friends with most of your upper management leadership team?

I know he ran that race with that one.

Daniel: [00:44:24] I certainly am now. yeah. and so I did like, yeah, I ran, A marathon or marathon relays with some coworkers and yeah, I mean, I'm friends and I want to have relationships with the people that I work with. And I think that does make a difference. But I would say that's probably been true of, nearly any person that I've been in a, a job competition with.

I mean, everybody tends to. To form those relationships. And I mean, there have even been some situations where, there were stronger outside of work relationships with some of the people that, I may have [00:45:00] moved up over or ahead of or whatever it is. And so to me, like, again, props to those, making those decisions to not, not let nepotism be a sway and making what they felt like was the best choice at that time.

Andrew: [00:45:14] Sure. You're not following along or, you know, have your own experiences, but have you ever, and this is also a question for you, Daniel, have you ever seen anybody that nobody liked get promoted?

Daniel: [00:45:27] Nobody likes it.

Andrew: [00:45:28] Cause you know, most places have that guy or girl that everybody's like, Oh, that person is not anyone's favorite or is hard to get along with that person rarely gets promoted.

Daniel: [00:45:38] Well, I mean, I probably haven't because so much of our job is about. Getting along with people, right? Like I'm in people management. And so if you can't get along with people, how are you going to manage people? I'm not saying you have to get along with everyone, but yeah. Yeah. you're not gonna really get promoted to be in charge of other people.

If you don't get along with people.

Andrew: [00:46:00] Well, and all of that said, one of the things that I know that really inspired me when we were talking about this pre podcast, whatever that was months ago, that we were tossing these kinds of ideas around. one of the things that I thought was really cool was having the ability to find purpose and happiness at work, because I know that was a thing I struggled with.

And that's actually what. Just pursuing opportunities does free. That's one of the benefits here is, and, take the likeability out and take promotions and, changing careers, all the other stuff we've talked about and making more money in that kind of stuff. If you're just talking about satisfaction in your career, the opportunity chasing opportunity, which I'm not sure if that's redundant, but being able to chase opportunities.

Whether or not you catch them or they give you anything truly worth your time and re return. You still get this level of satisfaction. That's really hard to come by if you're just floating through your career or your life for that matter. If you're not, talking to that girl at the bar, if you're not trying to get the next work assignment, your life takes on this really dull. Cast it's I don't know. Stale, I guess would be the word. And it's you don't get that satisfaction from it. At least I don't. And I don't think a lot of other people do.

Daniel: [00:47:12] Yeah. At this moment, I've got to ask, do you know your Enneagram number?

Andrew: [00:47:16] Dang it, Sam, I'm sorry. I know we told you we would do that, but I took the test and I forgot already. I'm going to guess eight because that's my favorite number. And I really do feel like I might've gotten an eight on it, but I can't remember

Daniel: [00:47:28] Nah, ma I mean maybe, but I think you're probably a three,

Andrew: [00:47:32] three. Is that good? Is that bad? Am I offended?

Daniel: [00:47:34] a three threes, or it's all about, achievement and goal setting. That's three. They're

all threes are all about that.

Andrew: [00:47:41] I'm offended. I mean, what's yours. I

assume it's a three

Daniel: [00:47:44] Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm a three,

three, a

Andrew: [00:47:47] very rarely do I actually have to do anything. Like you'll just do it and I'll just be like, Hey, well, what were the results? Cool. I'm good. Oh, you passed out crap. I'm going to the doctor.

Daniel: [00:47:54] Yeah. that's true. But no, you should take it. We should definitely do an episode on it

Andrew: [00:47:58] Okay. I'll I'll update the [00:48:00] show notes after this episode with, Andrew's Enneagram result for any of those freaks out there who want to know what you know, whether or not I'm a three,

Daniel: [00:48:08] And put your wing on it too.

Andrew: [00:48:10] my week there's wings. I don't remember that. I took the test. They do not remember wings,

Daniel: [00:48:14] It's very important.

Andrew: [00:48:15] you people out there and ridiculous. No, I'm an Aquarius for anyone that cares, whatever I got that one down,

Daniel: [00:48:21] Yeah, I can't. Can't tell you my sign. No idea.

Andrew: [00:48:24] You might also be an Aquarius now. Cause you're like a straight, well, you might be man. You're March 7th to my February 14th. I'm not sure what the cutoff date is. Cause I think there's like some overlap there. Nah, that can't be right. You gotta be a little different. We're not that similar.

Daniel: [00:48:45] so we heard. From me, a situation that could have been, uh, I mean, it was a big missed opportunity in all of that response, but, if you think back through your life, what have been, or what is one of your most heartbreaking or biggest missed opportunities?

Andrew: [00:49:02] Ooh, that one's tough.

I'll give you, I'm going to give you three,

we'll

Daniel: [00:49:06] What said one?

Andrew: [00:49:07] Nope. You're getting three. Cause I'm a three. Yeah, that's right. You can't pivot away from it. I got, you know, um, they're in varying levels of heartbreaking this cause I'm not really sure. I don't really have honestly, a lot of really big regrets like you where I've I can almost always find a positive side too.

Something that happened. And so generally I'm like, Hey, this was a really good learning experience or something like that. There's a silver lining that almost always outweighs whatever negative results there are because I learned something for life. And usually the pain and suffering is pretty short-lived.

Okay, opportunity. Number one, I just discovered, I guess, almost a year ago now we went to Spain and I had never really thought I would like Spain. Like it just, I don't know. And it didn't seem like my kind of place. I don't know why I went to Spain and I absolutely loved it. And I bring this up because in college I had an opportunity to study abroad in Spain. And again, this is not necessarily super heartbreaking because the trade off was instead of studying in Spain for a semester, I studied in Japan for three months and where the regret comes in is I could have either done, six, seven, maybe eight months. I can't remember exactly how long it was, but I could have done a really long time in Spain, or I got my three months and some change in Japan and I loved Japan and it was awesome.

Really good headstart on my Japanese that I now don't remember how to speak and all that kind of jazz. But after having visited Spain, I truly. At least at the time while we were there, I was like, Oh, I messed up. I should have learned Spanish. Instead gone to Spain. I would have gotten a lot better at Spanish, a lot quicker than I ever got at Japanese.

And I would have been able to retain it because I could have spoke Spanish at some point in eight years. And Japanese's little hard to come by. And it's a really hard language and hard to retain this. That was a. That's number one. So number [00:51:00] two, on that front was actually going to Texas tech versus H and M.

And in hindsight, why it's a regret, which again, I love Texas tech. it was a blast going there and I really enjoyed going to that school, but I didn't go to H and M because of, I guess you could say fear. I didn't want to be a part of the core program, which would have been a requirement if I went to H and M and I don't want to do engineering, which would have also been part of my condition of going to H and M.

Whereas at tech, I got to study whatever I wanted, which in this case was the global affairs in Japanese. So making a choice. On where I went to school, that was partly based out of a fear of something, in this case, fear of joining the cord, stunning engineering. I regret that to an extent, having made a decision, trying to take the easy path.

And so I don't know if it would have turned out differently. I really did enjoy tech, but it's regret. I wish I would have been brave enough to try and do something harder. And then. The third regret is a little less tangible. and this is more, I wish I would have had a better focus on nutrition and health.

And a lot of the stuff we talk about when I was younger, especially in high school and early high school, late middle school, if I would have been. More conscientious of what effected my body and what I could do and the opportunities I had. I think I would have really had a different trajectory on what I did with my life.

If I would've known back then, what would cause injuries and what would help and versus hurt, my athletic performance and just the ways I wasted time and everything like that. I think it would've been a little bit more focused across the board and knew what I knew now. And not necessarily like in the experience way, just purely knowledge based like, Hey, here's how much protein you need to be having here's these micronutrients you need to have here's how post-college life actually works.

Like here's what money actually means. This is what a real salary does and what you can do. You know, that kind of stuff like actually understanding money and actually understanding nutrition and I think it would've changed a lot of what I did.

Daniel: [00:52:57] Those are some big kind of really just like lifelong. Type opportunities

Andrew: [00:53:03] Yeah. There's no like little easy answer where I was like, man, I wish you would have taken that job. Like, sorry, I don't have

any of those.

Daniel: [00:53:09] Yeah. And those ones are tough because I think those are opportunities where, in any one of those things in that moment, did you really feel like, Oh, I made the wrong decision or I wish I had done a different gun, a different path.

Andrew: [00:53:24] I mean, Spain, I had no idea until eight years after I graduated and I'm in Spain. I'm like, Holy crap, this place is amazing. I messed up. the H and M one was close because I don't know if you remember, but I was going to A&M up until. July 20th, 24th, something like that. I think I swapped over to tech because I had acceptance, offers at both. not bragging or anything, actually, I'd really shouldn't brag. I think I had to begging him to let me in. whatever, but, Becky aside, I had these two acceptance offers and I was like, I'm going to, and that's where all the cool kids are going. I want to hang out with them. And college station sounds fun and [00:54:00] it's further away from Amarillo, blah, blah, blah.

And it got to the point where like, I'm packed up. I'm like crap, I'm going to tech. And I just went to tech instead. And. Hell, I think H and M called me and they're like, Hey, you didn't show up to class. I was like, yeah, I'm not coming. And they're like, what? You're not going to pay either. And I was like, nah, I'm a tech.

No, that one was pretty in the face. Like. I made a decision, but at the time I was like, Oh, thank goodness. I don't have to go do all those scary things. I didn't want to do, not gonna have to go asleep in a barracks with a bunch of dudes that wake up at five every morning and run around with their heads, shaved and yell at each other.

And yeah. all that kind of stuff. I was like tech, I get to sleep in the dorms like everybody else. And I only have one roommate, which was not fun necessarily, but you know, it was fear. And at the time I didn't realize that I should have been not making decisions based on fear. I thought I was perfectly rational.

I was like, wow, dodged the bullet. I'm so smart.

Daniel: [00:54:51] Yeah. Well, and I guess my point is those in those situations, it's only after a long time has passed that you are able to look back and say, Oh, I wish I had done things differently, but it's, the version of yourself. Now that's able to say that. And I think. I think that that's kind of a tough spot be.

I mean, it may be worth reflecting and saying, okay, well what can I do today to, you know, make a better decision? But those are ones that I dunno, I don't know how much good it does us to sit and dwell on those types of things, because you really made the. The best decisions that you could have made at that time with the information and the knowledge that you had and the information and the knowledge that you have now, you didn't have that, especially, the nutrition thing in high school.

And so if it can lead you, yeah. If it can lead you to like, raising your kids to naughty pop tarts or something like that's the action you can

take

Andrew: [00:55:49] get crazy.

No, it's regret is to me, I guess regret is a thing that I just don't really go in for. It's it doesn't really do you any good? You made the decisions you've made in. I don't want to be causing any time travel paradoxes. And so I'm not going to dwell on it. Like you learn your lessons and you learn something good from them.

And it's hard. It's the Spain ones, easy to say. Cause they're like, Oh, I, I would've loved to stay in Spain for six months instead of Japan for three. Cause that would have been cool. But at the same time, if I went back, knowing what I know now, I still probably wouldn't change. what I did because I am who I am now because of the experiences I've had.

I don't. Necessarily want to, have died in Spain and 2012 or something like it. It's regret doesn't do much good for you. Really. So reflection is great and learning lessons like, Hey, don't make decisions based on fear. I think that's a good lesson too, but you know, Pursuing the opportunities that what you want to do, there's not, I mean, that's part of it.

I, there's very few opportunities that I haven't really jumped at or tried to take up on it, different points. And if there are, I probably found a different opportunity that I liked better, that, I chased instead of just very, there's been very little [00:57:00] inactive time in my life.

Okay, Daniel, I'm going to do one more hard pivot on you just to keep everybody on their toes. So we've been talking about opportunities and chasing them, but have you had any opportunities that you missed out on or almost had, or, you know, anything like that? Any, maybe counterintuitive opportunities that goes against what we've been talking about?

Daniel: [00:57:24] Well, I don't know about counterintuitive or going against what we've talking about, but, as far as I guess, things that I went for and maybe didn't quite work out or whatever, along that regard, I, I think back to high school, And trying out for the tennis team, which, back in going from middle school to high school, we've talked about in a previous podcast that we were both in band and, it was are we going to keep doing that in high school?

And I think I did like a week of marching band. I don't think you did any of it at all. and, uh, you were going to play tennis, which. Is something, you know, you started playing tennis in middle school. and I definitely had not. I just was I think the summer before high school started playing tennis with you and thought it'd be fun to try out for the team.

And, tennis is kinda hard. So I tried out and did not make it my freshman year. And so that was, something that I went for opportunity I went for and. And, it got cut and I think it was somewhat close. It wasn't like just, the coach sat me down and I was like, son you're never gonna make it.

You're never gonna play for the school. Hang up your racket now.

Andrew: [00:58:35] Can you imagine a coach has ever said that to somebody, but there's all these stories apparently of these superstars. Who's head coach said that to, so I don't know, but.

Daniel: [00:58:42] Well, you know what? Like our freshman year is coach quest. And if any coach was going to do that probably would have been in.

Andrew: [00:58:48] If he had time to notice, maybe he was too busy lifting the weights.

Daniel: [00:58:52] for sure. yeah, he probably sat me down and was like, son, you look like you weigh a hundred pounds, soaking wet. What are you doing with your life? Here's some steroids.

Andrew: [00:59:02] Yeah. I can finally probably fit into the hoodie that may have convinced me that I could totally grow into my sophomore year, all 115 pounds of me and gave me that extra large. I was like, Oh yeah, just go hit the gym and you'll be wearing this and no time. And. 15 years later, I might be able to not swim in it.

May you jerk? Sorry, continue. Before we go down that path.

Daniel: [00:59:24] well let's say I had a situation, this reflection situation again, where it's like, okay, do I give up and say, Misses that one, I guess I'm going back to band or do I sorta, redouble my efforts and really try harder. And so I opted for, really working hard and, trying out, later on down the road and made JV and then, made varsity and very rarely got playtime.

I was never that great at tennis, which is. It's hard to be that good at tennis. I'm also at a big school, a lot of people were playing in middle school like [01:00:00] Andrew. it, it does, but all that say so, so that situation, made me think about something I read from Harvard business review, which essentially kind of asks this question of. which one is better? Is it better to have a near miss or a near win? And what they found was interesting early enough, the near miss is actually better for you in the long run, then that narrow victory. And it's because whenever you, are almost there and you barely don't make it, you either.

Really redouble your efforts and say, okay, I've got to work so much harder. I didn't quite make it. I really desire this. I really want this. And you put forth, a lot more of that effort to improve, or you look at something and you decide, you know what, like. I worked so hard at this and it still wasn't enough.

It's time to cut my losses. this isn't for me. And both of those things, actually, they are good for you in the long run because either all of that extra effort in that hunger, that desire, really causes you to improve, or you recognize that is this wasn't for me and you don't spend any more time on something that's not worth your time.

In the, in the study that they did, they looked at scientists that had been barely given a grant compared to those that barely missed the grant and then looked at what was their production over the course of 10 years following that. And so those that barely missed it, they ended up outproducing their narrow wind counterparts and the rationale is.

after a narrow win, you usually don't reflect too much on what that win is you either, Pat yourself on the back. And we're like, okay, I did it. I made it. I pulled through and you are encouraged to keep going and maybe not have to improve that much because you made it. Or maybe you got lucky, like maybe you shouldn't have been there in the first place and you end up stuck in something that you're not really that great at.

And you should have been bounced out in the first place.

Andrew: [01:01:57] Complacency is so dangerous.

Daniel: [01:01:59] Yes. It's that complacency and that false confidence that kind of tend to set in when make it by the skin of your teeth.

Andrew: [01:02:05] That is crazy. What would they qualify? Like? Is it like trademarks or patents or. Oh, that sounds so cool. Scientist is such a broad term.

Daniel: [01:02:14] Yeah. So I think it was a, published research and things

Andrew: [01:02:18] okay. That's cool. I don't actually have a, maybe I know some scientists. I'm not going to say, I don't know any in case there's any listening and they're gonna be mad that I don't call them scientists.

Daniel: [01:02:26] my sister Christie, she's technically a scientist and she works, going back to tennis with, Tyler Perry.

Andrew: [01:02:32] Huh, I guess I never qualified your sister's a scientist. That's cool. I'll give her a scientist. High-five since she lives like a floor down from here, but, and I'm going to brag on you a little bit because. That same thing, that is something that happened to you on that redoubling our efforts.

Like you never got great at tennis necessarily, but like, none of us did, but

happy did pretty good. But, uh, at the time I didn't really think much of this. Cause I was just like, yeah, man, you put in hard work and like, you just get good. that's [01:03:00] how life works. But in hindsight now that I've actually.

done a lot of other training and I've actually worked with a lot of people trying to get them in shape or just working out with them and that kind of stuff. you know, couch, the 5k super popular, especially for people in our current demographics.

and I don't know if you know where I'm going with this, but you, if you remember, could, I'm not sure what you're running exactly.

But we were running like three miles every day. But you're at three miles when you started was I'm going to say something like a 40 minute, three mile

Daniel: [01:03:28] it was a Bismal. I couldn't run the full three

Andrew: [01:03:31] I didn't think so. I thought you couldn't run all three miles straight, but I didn't want to like, say that and be wrong cause that's hurtful, but yeah, you sucked, and this is what I took for granted.

You were terrible at this running thing that we were doing every day, but you just hit it and you just kept hitting it and you. You just kept pushing it. Apparently it was partly you don't getting cut and all that kind of stuff and whatever else there was that pushed you that further limit, but it probably took you three months, maybe four.

And you went from a 40, 45 minute, three mile to having it to like a 2122 minute, three mile. and like at the time I was like, yeah, cool, man. Welcome to the level. Like took it long enough to get here. let's go learn how to play tennis now that we can run fast. like it, it didn't even like blow my mind.

I was like, what took you so long? But now I'm like, Holy crap. for someone to go like, Hey, in three months I want to have my 5k time. I'd be like, No, man, let's give you six and aim for shaving off 10 minutes. let's baby step. This we don't want to, I want you to like set too high of goals and, be disappointed in what happens.

that was a very impressive turnaround, even including all the, hormones and growth that we had going on. that was like dead winter too. That was like September. And then by December, you're like, Hey, I can run a. Six and a half minute mile let's go.

Daniel: [01:04:44] Yeah, well, and it was one of those things that it was tough to get better at tennis. And I definitely got better at tennis, but running was one of those things. It was just a willpower sort of thing. And it killed me that I was finishing almost last all the time. Like starting out when we were running and it just.

Yeah. And then knowing in the first place that I had not made the team before, and it was just tough. And so it was like, do I quit? You know what, I guess I'm just not an in shape person. I guess that's just not who I am or do I really say, okay, well this is something I want and I'm gonna work at it. And, It was definitely hard.

I don't know if you remember this part of it, but I literally threw up every day,

Andrew: [01:05:25] I remember. Cause I was just like, why you keep throwing up man? every day hit those three miles and you got throw up. I'm like, dude, we've been doing this for a month. quit it. This is weird, but you were just going that hard.

Daniel: [01:05:35] it could have been, I mean, eating cereal for breakfast every morning and dairy, I think I'm slightly lactose intolerant, but,

Andrew: [01:05:40] Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think there's also things that happen when you push your body that hard. And by the way, for anybody that is curious, this was, we did this every day, like Monday through Friday for three months, they'd be like, all right, cool. It's you know, 10:00 AM you're here for an hour. you need to get at least three miles under your cut.

Daniel: [01:05:59] Well, [01:06:00] it was going back to coach Mayhew, this was an Andrew and I were on JV. His mantra was you probably, I mean, you aren't, you're not as good at tennis as varsity and you probably never will be, but you're going to be in better shape than them.

Andrew: [01:06:12] Yeah. And he was right. Never ran so much in my life.

Daniel: [01:06:15] Yeah, by the time that we made it up to varsity, I remember we would do Indian runs and just to get back at, the kids who were actually skilled at the sport that we were playing, anytime it and sorry, let me back up in Indian run is when. You have the whole team running and align and whoever's in front, it gets to set the pace so they can go as slow or as fast as they, they want to.

And then whenever the coach blows the whistle, whoever's at the back of the line as to sprint and get in front of the person at the front and then they get to set the pace. So when we did Indian runs, when Andrew and I were at the front, we would run. Very fast and anytime the person was supposed to sprint and catch up from behind, we would typically race them and make them really sprint to catch up.

And so we would do that while we were in the front and the team hated us and all of that fun stuff. And then once one of them got to the front, we basically got to walk. And so it was just this constant cycle of, what coach me who made us yeah. Sweat and bleed and JB. So we're gonna stick it to you now.

Andrew: [01:07:14] Demons. We became demons.

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